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Belaying accident and aftermath

Original Post
Katie Wind · · DENVER · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 5

I have a friend who was the belayer in an accident this past spring. My friend, an experienced and safe (those who climb with him would say that he is overkill on the safety checks) climber, was out with a group at a sport crag. He knew some folks well but not others. The climber he was belaying was merely an acquaintance. The actual event was that my friend, who was using a Cinch belay device, dropped the climber when he fell, and the climber hit a ledge. He was out for the rest of the day, but has not, to my friend's knowledge, suffered any long-lasting effects. My friend has been unable to get further information, in spite of inquiring mutual friends.

My friend spoke to a representative at Trango, to inquire about similar accidents, (possibly due to a design problem) whom he said was nice but basically confirmed that the accident was due to user error. He has since switched over to a Gri-Gri for sport belaying.

My friend ceased climbing for at least two months after the event, he was so shaken. While he has since begun climbing again, he still cannot forgive himself. He avoids events where climbers will be present, and has said that he feels he's a "fraud."

My question for the forum is whether anyone else has 1) been through a similar experience; 2) knows anyone else who has; and 3) has any advice or words of counsel for my friend. Please help!

Jeff G · · Colorado · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,098

Lots of people get dropped or mess up a belay and it doesn't matter what belay device they are using. An ATC is pretty easy to drop someone with if you don't use it correctly. Same with a GriGri, same with a Cinch. The type of belay device is irrelevant to this conversation.
If he thinks that the device was at fault and just simply switches to a GriGri, well then, I guess he isn't taking ownership and he will potentially hurt someone else. He needs to accept that he made a mistake, we all make mistakes.
Hopefully your friend will understand what he did wrong and make an effort to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Patrik · · Third rock from Sun · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 30

Search on "cinch accident" and you'll get plenty of hits. There's one particular accident that comes to my mind a few years back in Eldo. Someone leads the first pitch of Rewritten or a nearby climb. The leader uses a Cinch to belay his second. The second falls... and falls... and falls ... until the rope snags on something and saves the guy after falling 80ft. (Edit: I've found the complete post here ( mountainproject.com/v/lost-… in particular post by the victim user name ABMFB) with more accurate info than what I described).

I'm a little surprised that no lawyer has yet been taking on the many cinch accidents and tried to make money out of this issue. Even though I see very few Cinches out there, proportionally there seems to be more accidents (or at least stories) out there.

Personally, I refuse to be belayed on a Cinch and I'm also a little weary about all other assist-locking devices. In my mind they may cause the belayer to pay a little less attention to the delicate art of belaying and instead relying on something he thinks is a 100% foolproof device.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

There are occasional threads where people have claimed that their Cinch failed to lock for no identifiable reason. It's hard to say whether they are legit or user error. I have on acquaintance who said he was belaying and the Cinch did not lock immediately and his climber fell more than expected, but the climber did not hit anything. I used to use a Cinch and found it touchy with thin ropes, especially when new and slick. The straight rope path made it feed very nicely, but also made lowering more of a "on or off" proposition IMO, and more difficult to modulate as compared to a Grigri. I switched to a Grigri and have been happier with it. However, I never had a problem with it not catching a fall. I'd like to think that all belay drops are user error, but I'm not sure if there is some rare yet-to-be-identified factor that makes a Cinch prone to not locking.

Mike Kaserman · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 0

The saddle pin on a Cinch wears down, and eventually it won't catch as easily as when the pin is in good shape, if at all. I'm a fan of the Cinch design, but they do wear faster than a Gri-gri, and if you've got a slick and/or thin rope and and a sufficiently worn pin, you can crater somebody. There's no mysterious design flaw, but Cinch users do need to keep an eye on the wear.

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125

The Cinch is the most touchy belay device on the market by far. While I'm not completely convinced there is a design flaw keeping it open under certain unlikely condition, I will not belay with one or let anybody belay me with one. IMO, people who have been informed of the various accidents but continue to use one are delusional of their belaying skills.

coppolillo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 70

There was a time when every single groundfall at our local gym was on one particular brand's auto-assist belay device. Was it that device's design...or user error? Turns out it was user error...I'd be very, very careful concluding that one particular device is flawed, simply because you get hits on the internet or that one has heard "lots" of stories about it.

Belayer error is usually the culprit. People get dropped with GriGris all the time. All the time. The GriGri isn't the problem.

As some other folks wrote, people make mistakes. Everybody does. One thing pops out for me, though, reading this: the OP's friend is supposedly super safe, but then he has someone belaying him whom he barely knows. That to me doesn't sound all that cautious.

Anyway, the traumatized belayer made a mistake and "got away with one." Phew. Revisit his belay technique (gloves? technique? attentiveness?) and get back in there. Good luck.

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648

Here's one more person who won't let someone belay me with a cinch. All though the failure mode may still be user error, there is no other device out there that makes it so easy to have user error. Like reboot said, the cinch is the most touchy device out there and is by far the most prone to having someone do nothing noticeably different than they have done a thousand times before when it has caught, and all of the sudden it just doesn't catch.

Shadrock · · Here and there. · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 430

Irrespective of the belay device used, it strikes me that this question is more about how to help your friend get back on his feet. Has your friend discussed this with the person he dropped? I hit the ground on a climb recently and it was simply nothing my partner could've avoided. Fortunately, I came away with only a few bruises, but I made it a point to assure my partner that she'd done nothing wrong. I know it was still on her mind for a little while but I think just getting it out in the open helped her not feel too bad about. I still trust her completely and we climb whenever we can.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Yeah...maybe it's always been this way, but I feel like we're in the golden age of belay device manufacturing. There's hundreds of different devices out there, made by numerous companies (Petzl, BD, Trango, etc), all touting to be the best/safest/easiest device ever. I swear - every time I go to the gym, some idiot is showing me another freaking belay device. Maybe with this much saturation (and rapid fast churnout), people simply aren't giving themselves long enough to learn how to use each device and work out the design flaws/kinks. There's nothing safer than a device you're comfortable and experienced using...

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
coppolillo wrote:People get dropped with GriGris all the time. All the time.
Well, it's certainly refreshing to see someone acknowledging today's reality for a change.

kennoyce wrote:Here's one more person who won't let someone belay me with a cinch. All though the failure mode may still be user error, there is no other device out there that makes it so easy to have user error.
I'd very much disagree, the grigri is equally prone to user error - in fact, all autoblocking devices by their very nature are prone to user error because 99% of people instead treat them like autolocking devices in practice.
kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 16,608

Some other factors to consider:

  • did the fall take place at the same time the belayer was giving a "quick feed" for the leader to make a clip?
  • almost any auto-assist / auto-lock belay device performs differently with a different rope diameter (or rope stiffness or slickness/fuzziness).

Putting those two together:
The difficulty of making a "quick feed" with a device can be very different with different ropes.

So the degree to which you have to sort of "disable" the auto-lock function of the device could vary widely for different devices with different ropes.

And the "safe" method of making a "quick feed" might be different for different devices. Most people I know learned how to make a "quick feed" with a GriGri -- but I don't know if it works the same way with a Cinch.

Guessing from the posters I see at indoor gyms, I guess there have been mistakes with improper "quick feed" technique using a GriGri. Or were some of those cases not "mistakes" but device problems?

. . . (of course the more serious mistake is simply threading the rope the wrong way through the device in set-up -- something which the _climber_ should check before setting off -- but surely that was already ruled out in this case).

Ken
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Healyje wrote: I'd very much disagree, the grigri is equally prone to user error
The grigri offers way more latitude over slight user errors, and the consequences are typically not nearly as severe. It's pretty telling that most of the known Cinch accidents are NOT made by people who are complete newbies or lackadaisical about safety.
Scott M. McNamara · · Presidio San Augustine Del… · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 55

Katie, I am glad you are seeking to help your friend!

I was dropped by an very experienced belayer using a Cinch. I fractured a cervical vertebra.

But it was simply an accident. He did not intend to drop me. I would not want him to feel bad. How would that help? Hopefully, we both learned something.

Here the person who dropped his climber brought to that accident various internal scripts—probably written during childhood. He plays these scripts in his head. He says things to himself that make himself feel horrible/awful/embarrassed/bad.

But he does not need to do so. It is probably not even rational—I am horrible because I had an accident.

About 2,000 years ago Epictetus, a crippled, Greek slave said, “It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.” It is still true today.

Todd Cook · · Burlingame, CA · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 230
Katie Church wrote: My question for the forum is whether anyone else has 1) been through a similar experience; 2) knows anyone else who has; and 3) has any advice or words of counsel for my friend. Please help!
There's a saying: there's two types of motorcycle riders: those how haven't gone down yet, and those who have. It doesn't apply directly to climbing, since "going down on a bike" shouldn't always be considered a "user crash", just as not every climbing mistake results in a ground fall.

Sooner or later everybody makes mistakes while climbing; it's a matter of the degree of severity & consequences:

1.) trivial: momentarily not paying out rope quickly enough when climber is advancing above the belay
2.) moderate: failing to give a soft catch when appropriate
3.) critical: catching a belay but only after taking off two layers of skin...
4.) fatal: not catching a belay at all

The scale can be applied to most climbing situations, i.e.:

1.) trivial: not knotting the loose end of a figure 8 tail
2.) moderate: tying and using a bowline instead of a figure 8 knot
3.) critical: tying a figure 8 improperly
4.) fatal: not tying a not at all, and weighting the rope on rappel
etc...

Yes all people make mistakes, but the discipline of climbing is aiming for perfection and minimizing mistakes.

Because Mt. Project isn't the best place for honest and real conversations that need to happen about the outdoors & adventure (Mt. Project and climbers in groups in general tend to have too much ego invested and guys typically want to turn everything into a pissing contest). I recommend that the friend should go talk individually to older, experienced climbers, alone, ask those people if they have messed up while climbing and somebody got hurt a little. Have the person tell the older climber what happened and how they feel. The friend will have to open up to grow. The friend might be surprised by the sympathy that he gets.
At least the friend will certainly be surprised when he hears about experienced people's #3 & #4 errors and how they dealt with them.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
reboot wrote:It's pretty telling that most of the known Cinch accidents are NOT made by people who are complete newbies or lackadaisical about safety.
Not really, it's more a case of newbies stick with grigris and the cinch is more a device choice of people with some degree of experience.
JenH · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 145

1) The cinch is a perfectly fine device 2) Learn how to use whatever device you choose 3) It's always user error

It sounds like your friend has demonstrated sufficient contrition. I worry about the belayers that don't. I've been witness to several incidents/accidents, and when the first thing the belayer says is pointing blame at the device, the climber, or doing anything other than taking ownership immediately for the incident/accident I feel they are not fixable belayers. Never climb with these people again. Your friend sounds to be different and will hopefully come out with greater awareness and respect for the many variables that need be kept in check when belaying.

My M.O. is "You can pry the rope from my cold dead fingers." and I can catch whippers all day on whatever device you put in my hands. And I expect the same from my belayer as I do out of myself when I'm belaying, and that is, to provide the best case scenario catch of any fall at any time.

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Healyje wrote: Not really, it's more a case of newbies stick with grigris and the cinch is more a device choice of people with some degree of experience.
It's not a popular device ANYWAY you try to slice the climbing experience, but we sure seem to have heard plenty accidents involving one.

And then there are of those us who've used it, maybe worn one thru (not hard at all), and/or had a close call or worse, then maybe looked at its slight lead rope feeding benefit and decided it does not come close to make up for its deficiencies in wear, rope feeding under tension, and more importantly, margin of error.
Todd R · · Vansion, CO / WY · Joined May 2014 · Points: 40

Hey Katie,
In more direct response to your question about folks who have been through similar experiences and words of advice for your friend, I offer this:

I've been on both ends. About a year ago at north table I was belaying a friend of mine on a not super well protected route, and she took a fall trying to reach the third bolt which resulted in her hitting a slab and breaking her ankle. Obviously, being the one holding the rope, I felt awful. I still feel if I'd been more active I could've taken in more slack, quickly sat-down/ran back, or whatever. As it is, I didn't, and she broke her ankle. Luckily she doesn't blame me near as much as I blame myself.
On the other end, I was in boulder canyon not too long ago and took a fall above a substantial ledge where my belayer couldn't see me. I didn't yell falling, so when the rope came tight my belayer quickly fed out slack thinking I was making a desperate clip, resulting in me bouncing off the ledge and taking a rather substantial whipper. Luckily I was alright.

I already know the lovely folks on this site are going to rip these stories apart, but my point is this: if you're out there climbing for a significant amount of time, shit happens. If you/you're friends/whoever are out there pushing it and taking whips on the daily, sooner or later, a mistake will probably be made. Oftentimes these mistakes are trivial, sometimes, unfortunately, they're not. The point is we take these as learning experiences to become better/safer climbers. You're buddy made a mistake. I'd say just accept it for what it is and get back in the saddle. What's important is looking at the mistake that was made and learning from it. Take the lesson there is to be had and get back climbing!

This shit we do is dangerous, as much as we sometimes try to convince ourselves it's not. There is never 100% safety in this game, and it's dangerous to ever think otherwise.

This is by far the longest thing I've ever posted on this site. This rainy-ish weather must be getting to my head.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
reboot wrote: It's not a popular device ANYWAY you try to slice the climbing experience, but we sure seem to have heard plenty accidents involving one.
I'd bet that on a percentage basis grigri accidents are still way, way out front by a long shot.

reboot wrote:And then there are of those us who've used it, maybe worn one thru (not hard at all), and/or had a close call or worse, then maybe looked at its slight lead rope feeding benefit and decided it does not come close to make up for its deficiencies in wear, rope feeding under tension, and more importantly, margin of error.
And I'd also bet device wear has played only a very minor role in cinch accident stats. Ditto design 'deficiencies', because it's not really about the device specifics.

Todd Ra wrote:...but my point is this: if you're out there climbing for a significant amount of time, shit happens.
Hate to be a downer, but when it comes to belaying, no one should ever drop or be dropped.

The alarming frequency of people dropping each other and the 'shit happens' attitude that has developed around it have only come about since the advent of sport climbing, gyms, autoblock devices and a swollen demographic with a penchant for climbing in groups. Prior to the mid-80's, dropping a climber was a rare - like bordering on unheard of - occurrence.

But it's also pretty clear it's a genie that is not going back in the bottle and it is now a built-in statistic to the demographic no different than us all driving despite auto accident stats. Bottom line it means a certain percentage of climbers (you) are unavoidably going to drop and be dropped each year and, given that frightening reality, the name of the game is how not to be part of that statistic.

For me it's about inexperience, inadequate mastery and distracted behaviors - any of the three alone is problematic, any two together are an accident waiting to happen. Unfortunately about the only advice to be given online is learn the craft, log the yardage and clamp down on any and all distracted behaviors.

Belaying definitely falls under the heading of "do unto others..." in a big way but, like a lot of things, it's a lot easier said than done when it isn't you on the sharp end of the rope.
Greg Maschi · · Phoenix ,Az · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 0

No question user error, belay devices are easy to blame ,sounds like the belayer doesn't have the "gumption " required for belaying let alone climbing.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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