Bolt/Chain etiquette

John Wilder wrote: Honestly, outside of a really poorly bolted sport route

Looking at you Mr. Choad's Wild Ride!

Joshua:

I'll make it really simple for you:

NEVER top rope through the chains.
NEVER lower off the chains when finished - always rappel.
ONLY top rope on your own gear.
Clip your draws (or equalette or quad) to the bolt hangers, not the rappel chains.
Clip your personal anchor to the bolt hangers.

REASONS:

Top roping or lowering through the rappel chains wears them out. Way easier for you to replace your own worn carabiner than for somebody to replace the rappel chains. Nothing worse than a rappel chain being half worn through!

Clip the bolt hangers because then there is less gear for a potential failure. The chains are probably safe but the fewer potential failure points the safer the system. Sometimes there is not enough room on the hangers so I will choose the strongest part of the rappel chains. However, pay attention to what order things must be unclipped when cleaning the anchors. For example, if your personal anchor system is under the rappel chains it will be difficult to unclip because of your weight on the rappel anchors.

That ain't comin' off without bolt cutters...

Arlo F Niederer wrote: NEVER lower off the chains when finished - always rappel.

This is bad advice unless you are planning on staying a trad climber or a 5.10 sport climber forever.

But I just don't care any more.
Interested parties can search the forum for countless lower vs rap arguments.

Arlo F Niederer wrote:NEVER lower off the chains when finished - always rappel.

Absolutely not true and possibly dangerous on some routes. It can also make your draws impossible to retrieve without reclimbing the route.

I've clipped numerous bolts that have a biner or quick link left in them. Sure, it's less than ideal, but is it really that bad? On steeper sport routes often the biner or quick link is there to be used as a redirect when cleaning. Look at Twinkie at the Red. It and the two routes next to it have quick links to clean the bottom half so you don't take a monster swing every bolt.

Marc801 wrote: Absolutely not true and possibly dangerous on some routes. It can also make your draws impossible to retrieve without reclimbing the route.

I have never been on a route where it was impossible to retrieve your draws. If you can clip the draws how does it become impossible to unclip them? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Perhaps you are talking about draws on the lead bolts not the draws at the top? Even on overhanging routes you can use an autoblock to hold you while cleaning draws on rappel.

If you don't know how to do this safely then you need to upgrade your skills. And donate money to organizations maintaining fixed gear at the areas where you climb.

You clip your draws or equalette and toprope through them. When finished, you pull your rope through the rappel chains or rings and rappel off. When you pull your rope it is not weighted so it causes less wear on them.

The only dangerous rappel chains I've encountered are ones half worn through by inconsiderate people who lower or toprope through them.

Arlo F Niederer wrote: I have never been on a route where it was impossible to retrieve your draws. If you can clip the draws how does it become impossible to unclip them? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Perhaps you are talking about draws on the lead bolts not the draws at the top? Even on overhanging routes you can use an autoblock to hold you while cleaning draws on rappel. If you don't know how to do this safely then you need to upgrade your skills. And donate money to organizations maintaining fized gear at the areas where you climb. You clip your draws or equalette and toprope through them. When finished, you pull ypur rope through the rappel chains or rings and rappel off. When you pull your rope it is not weighted so it causes less wear on them. The only dangerous rappel chains I've encountered are ones half worn through by inconsiderate people who lower or toprope through them.

If you reach the point of climbing hard sport routes you will have a better idea what you are talking about.

In the meantime, as I said before, I have given up and you may carry on teaching outmoded dangerous techniques to meet up participants without any discouragement from me.

Kent Richards wrote:

OLD GUY FIGHT!!!

Shouldn't be an guy man fight, should be a respectful exchange of experience and opinions with the logic and reasons behind those opinions. But in this age of avatar anonymity we are losing the ability to have civil exchanges...

Mark E Dixon wrote: But I just don't care any more. Interested parties can search the forum for countless lower vs rap arguments.

I went out and reviewed a lengthy forum on the subject, and yes, it is full of arguments. This seems to be a real hot button for Mark (and others who advocate lowering instead of rappel), and I'm sorry it set him off. I wished his choice was to provide the reasons for his approach and when they are appropriate and when they are not. I'd gladly lower through the chains if that was appropriate and safe - but will choose to rappel when safe because of the lower impact.

Face it, there aren't many hard and fast rules in climbing - many times our choices depend on circumstances and many other factors.

Let's get back to the original. Joshua was asking about what to do when rappeling and toproping, so my answer was based on his question.

Joshua Munoz wrote:Hey would someone go over some rules of bolt etiquette. For the most part I think I know what I'm doing as far as what to anchor to what and what to run the rope through when repelling. Just wanting to get a list of do's and don't's esentially. Example - what to clip self anchors too, what to clip my beaners too if I'm going to use them for TR. Thanks

I usually don't use absolute words like "ALWAYS", but it's Monday and it's five whole days to the weekend. I advocate rappelling because I respect the money and effort that somebody put into placing anchors - I want them to last as long as possible!

Do you throw your rope in the dirt and stomp all over it? Why not? Because you want it to last as long as possible! Why are anchors any different?

So let me modify my original post:

NEVER top rope through the chains.
Lower off the chains when finished if that is appropriate and safer - otherwise rappel.
ONLY top rope on your own gear.
Clip your draws (or equalette or quad) to the bolt hangers, not the rappel chains.
Clip your personal anchor to the bolt hangers.

REASONS: Top roping or lowering through the rappel chains wears them out. Way easier for you to replace your own worn carabiner than for somebody to replace the rappel chains. Nothing worse than a rappel chain being half worn through!

On overhanging routes it might be safer and more convenient to lower through the chains.

Clip the bolt hangers because then there is less gear for a potential failure. The chains are probably safe but the fewer potential failure points the safer the system.

Sometimes there is not enough room on the hangers so I will choose the strongest part of the rappel chains. However, pay attention to what order things must be unclipped when cleaning the anchors. For example, if your personal anchor system is under the rappel chains it will be difficult to unclip because of your weight on the rappel anchors.

Chuck Parks wrote: This is fairly common practice. Like most things in climbing, it can be done very safely... or not. The main concern is that one party manipulating their anchor could somehow inadvertently compromise the other party's anchor. As long as everyone knows what they're doing, most fixed anchors are plenty strong enough to hold two parties.

I would say the main concern is the rope path between the two ropes. If one rope is under load, it's moving through the anchor (e.g. climber lowering off), and it crosses path with a second rope that is stationary, the moving rope could cut through the stationary rope. Similar issues have occurred at crags throughout the USA, sometimes even with quite experienced climbers, and multiple climbers have died as a result.

OP: The number one cause of fatalities in the scenario you are asking about involves failing to communicate with the belayer. Quite possibly over 100 climbers have died because they threaded the anchor, removed their sling, then just sat back on the rope expecting the belayer to catch them. But as a result of poor communication, they were unaware their belayer actually took them off belay (as many belayers incorrectly do). This exact accident report appears on the Internet frequently and accidents occur in the gym, on sport routes and on trad routes.

Before removing your tether from the anchor, ALWAYS weight the rope hard (use your full weight) and communicate with your belayer to make sure he has you. Dont remove your sling until you hear back from your belayer that he has you and you can weight the rope fully, knowing that it's anchored down at the ground, OR just rap off the route if you feel more comfortable doing that.

Arlo F Niederer wrote:Shouldn't be an guy man fight, should be a respectful exchange of experience and opinions with the logic and reasons behind those opinions. But in this age of avatar anonymity we are losing the ability to have civil exchanges... I went out and reviewed a lengthy forum on the subject, and yes, it is full of arguments. This seems to be a real hot button for Mark (and others who advocate lowering instead of rappel), and I'm sorry it set him off. I wished his choice was to provide the reasons for his approach and when they are appropriate and when they are not. I'd gladly lower through the chains if that was appropriate and safe - but will choose to rappel when safe because of the lower impact. Face it, there aren't many hard and fast rules in climbing - many times our choices depend on circumstances and many other factors. Let's get back to the original. Joshua was asking about what to do when rappeling and toproping, so my answer was based on his question. I usually don't use absolute words like "ALWAYS", but it's Monday and it's five whole days to the weekend. I advocate rappelling because I respect the money and effort that somebody put into placing anchors - I want them to last as long as possible! Do you throw your rope in the dirt and stomp all over it? Why not? Because you want it to last as long as possible! Why are anchors any different? So let me modify my original post: NEVER top rope through the chains. Lower off the chains when finished if that is appropriate and safer - otherwise rappel. ONLY top rope on your own gear. Clip your draws (or equalette or quad) to the bolt hangers, not the rappel chains. Clip your personal anchor to the bolt hangers. REASONS: Top roping or lowering through the rappel chains wears them out. Way easier for you to replace your own worn carabiner than for somebody to replace the rappel chains. Nothing worse than a rappel chain being half worn through! On overhanging routes it might be safer and more convenient to lower through the chains. Clip the bolt hangers because then there is less gear for a potential failure. The chains are probably safe but the fewer potential failure points the safer the system. Sometimes there is not enough room on the hangers so I will choose the strongest part of the rappel chains. However, pay attention to what order things must be unclipped when cleaning the anchors. For example, if your personal anchor system is under the rappel chains it will be difficult to unclip because of your weight on the rappel anchors.

Arlo, thanks for your thoughtful post. It's funny you mention anonymous avatars when we are both (I believe) actually using our names.

I got all heated about lowering a few years ago after the AAC President got dropped at Highwire. If you recall, his partner thought he was rappeling and he thought he was going to be lowered, so fell quite a distance and IIRC, broke his pelvis. I would like to never hear of another similar incident.

This kind of accident seemed (and seems)to me to be completely avoidable as long as both the climber and belayer try to always do one or the other, but not switch back and forth. And since it isn't always feasible to rap, I advocate lowering. It's a lot easier to fix worn rings/chains than it is to fix broken climbers.

Honestly though, climbers should do whatever each thinks is safest at the time, given appropriate respect towards preserving the resource and the contributions of their fellow climbers. For me, the added protection of (almost) always lowering outweighs any expense I bear replacing worn quicklinks/chains/etc.

Hi Mark. Yes, I did note that you used your real name and sorry to lump you in with people who use anonymity to be less than cordial.

I understand why this is a hot button for you. When you see somebody hurt it totally changes your perspective!

I volunteered on Teton County Search & Rescue for 12 years as well as volunteered as an advanced life support EMT. Other SAR or EMT's were "anal retentive" about certain things we would encounter during callouts. In almost all cases it was because of a prior incident like what you are describing. I have things I'm anal attentive about because of incidents I've been involved in!

I can totally relate to your desire to do things in a consistent manner. I think it is safer to be consistent with how you do things because when you get tired or have to hurry (lightning, etc.) you drop into "autopilot". If you do things consistently in a safe manner then you have a better chance of being safe. But I always try to be conscious of what I'm doing and double check my autopilot.

I was training director for 6 years and we always practiced in a consistent manner. However, we also always did a "pause" to double check everything (anchors, ropes, knots, etc.) before committing people's lives to the system.

Arlo F Niederer wrote: So let me modify my original post: Clip your draws (or equalette or quad) to the bolt hangers, not the rappel chains. Clip your personal anchor to the bolt hangers. REASONS: Clip the bolt hangers because then there is less gear for a potential failure. The chains are probably safe but the fewer potential failure points the safer the system. Sometimes there is not enough room on the hangers so I will choose the strongest part of the rappel chains. However, pay attention to what order things must be unclipped when cleaning the anchors. For example, if your personal anchor system is under the rappel chains it will be difficult to unclip because of your weight on the rappel anchors.

Arlo, your first post was full of absolutes, as if your rules were the only rules, then Mark pretty much insulted you by saying you only climb easy terrain and dont have the full picture. This usually is the beginning of a good 'ole fashioned internet fight, at least from what I've experienced in the past. Good on you for keeping it together!

I'm glad you changed your post because I was also going to pick it apart, the part about not clipping into the chains made no sense. You also changed that too. I've seen some shitty chains but not in a long long time so I really dont ever see them as a weak link. My history with cleaning anchors and setting up topropes is that every single climb is different and requires different techniques. Even clipping into the bottom link of chain happens sometimes, it all depends on the situation at hand.

Mark E Dixon wrote: If you reach the point of climbing hard sport routes you will have a better idea what you are talking about. In the meantime, as I said before, I have given up and you may carry on teaching outmoded dangerous techniques to meet up participants without any discouragement from me.

You lead and leave the draws and or rope. Second or last person to climb cleans and raps. Take out the factor of relying on someone else. We are constantly trying to minimize added points of failure. Relying on someone else to lower is one of those possible factors. Not to mention that it does wear the fixed hardware more quickly if you are lowered off it.

How is this not a no brainer? The gear should be gone by the time you go to rappel...

If your second falls in say The Motherlode and swings out then cant get back to the wall. Give the mofo some ascenders and bam! Problem fixed!

Tylerpratt wrote: You lead and leave the draws and or rope. Second or last person to climb cleans and raps. Take out the factor of relying on someone else. We are constantly trying to minimize added points of failure. Relying on someone else to lower is one of those possible factors. Not to mention that it does wear the fixed hardware more quickly if you are lowered off it. How is this not a no brainer? The gear should be gone by the time you go to rappel... If your second falls in say The Motherlode and swings out then cant get back to the wall. Give the mofo some ascenders and bam! Problem fixed!

That would work, although unless you bring a kayak along, you'd still need somebody to trailer you in on a route like this mountainproject.com/v/sonic…

I've been a prisoner of the front range for a while now, even so I'm surprised to hear that your practice above is the norm at the Motherlode.

But maybe you should go even further to protect the anchors and confine yourself to threading only one of the anchors before rapping. They will last twice as long that way.

Likewise, I can imagine crags where the environment is so abrasive that rapping really is the only reasonable practice.

Ultimately this issue will disappear when anchors are equipped with easily replaceable modular components through which a lowering rope can be easily clipped. Many harder routes already sport donated carabiners for this purpose. Unfortunately such carabiners tend to disappear off easier routes where they would actually be most helpful.

Tim Lutz wrote:The Motherload has fixed draws, so rapping is possible. Many steep areas do not have fixed draws. How is rapping 'minimize points of failure'? The potential failure lies in rapper, not the belayer. It isn't minimized. So, you've trusted your belayer while you are climbing, but suddenly at the anchors you don't, and have to take the matter of getting yourself to the ground in your own hands? And, if you rap, you rely soley on yourself and the 2 anchor points. If you are lowered, all the rest of the fixed draws are potential backups if the anchor fails. After a hard redpoint, I would much rather clip the chains and have the belayer lower me than trust myself to rap. Readin the comments of actual route developers in other threads, safety in the community is a bigger concern than incremental anchor wear.

If you are lowered you rely on someone else, belay loop, parabiner, and JUST the two bolts same as rapping. How isn't there less points of failure from rapping come on, don't try to be difficult.

The Motherlode was just an example thrown out there.

We are talking about cleaning the route here. Not routes with fixed draws. Yes, again I know I mentioned The Motherlode oops, but it was the first example of a very overhung crag I came up with.

You guys talk about safety and yet you constantly weaken the anchors by lowering off them.

That's my bottom line here. I hope they get replaced on the reg. Maybe you feel more safe doing this. But it is less safe for everyone else.

Tylerpratt wrote: If you are lowered you rely on someone else, belay loop, parabiner, and JUST the two bolts same as rapping. How isn't there less points of failure from rapping come on, don't try to be difficult. The Motherlode was just an example thrown out there. We are talking about cleaning the route here. Not routes with fixed draws. Yes, again I know I mentioned The Motherlode oops, but it was the first example of a very overhung crag I came up with.

My concern is being dropped because my belayer doesn't know whether I'm rapping or lowering. I solve this by "always" lowering. I don't climb with folks who arbitrarily switch back and forth unless they are very old friends, in which case I'm willing to take my chances.

If this makes me a chain destroying villain, tough luck. Those most bitterly complaining about it often don't seem to be the folks placing or buffing up the anchors themselves.

You should do whatever you believe makes you safest.