upgrading from subaru outback to ???

20 kN wrote:Also, FYI the average fuel economy of a pre-2009 Sprinter is not 30 MPG, it's 19 MPG. Even the newer Sprinter 1500s are only averaging 20 MPG. Considering the OP is using this for living in the city, I suspect a large amount of his miles will be city miles, in which those MPG values drop even further. fuelly.com/car/dodge/sprint… fuelly.com/car/mercedes-ben… sprinter-source.com/forum/s…

2006 3500 Sprinter fully converted = 22-25 mpg (at least for me)

thanks for all the advice. super solid.

mike, when you say that the T1n has 'known' mechanical issues, what do you mean? like they're easily fixed? or ?

considering that I have a place to park in a friends driveway that's really close (walking distance) to campus, i don't think there will be too much city driving. she'll probably see most of her use on climbing trips each weekend and longer trips during fall, winter and summer breaks. my main reason for getting it is so that when I graduate, I have a solid home and vehicle ready to hop on the road and climb.

as far as the interest rates go, most auto loans i found ranged from 3-6% while my federal student loans are 4.29% for the life of the loan. not to mention that they have much more flexible repayment plans, and the interest is largely subsidized for the length of my time in school. if anyone has any advice or insight into the whole car financing thing, that'd be great as its all super new to me.

Christian C wrote:the interest is largely subsidized for the length of my time in school

You sure about that? That's very uncommon. Typically you don't have to start making payments, but the interest absolutely starts accruing the instant they cut you the check. It's not subsidized at all, merely payment deferred.

Honestly, using student loans to finance a car is an absolutely terrible idea. You keep on trying to justify it, but you're digging yourself into a hole.

The main reason: student loans are almost never dischargeable under bankruptcy. You are going to pay for this van for life, no matter what. If it gets wrecked by an uninsured driver. If it gets flooded or destroyed by an act of god (often not covered under typical auto policies). If, if, if. You are tying a giant albatross around your neck from which you can never escape. And unlike your education, it's a depreciating asset, from which you have absolutely no legal escape.

It could theoretically work out in your favor. But if it doesn't, you are absolutely screwed. And your credit score and finances are gonna smell worse than cat piss for decades.

Dave T wrote: You do realize student loans carry a higher interest rate than most car loans, right? student loan: navient.com/assets/loan-cus… Car loans: bankrate.com/calculators/au… Of course there is a reason a good portion of our population is still paying off student debt in there 40s.

Student loans are easy to get. It's the price you pay for accessible credit.

20 kN wrote: Even the newer Sprinter 1500s are only averaging 20 MPG.

The newer sprinters get LESS gas mileage than the older version. T1N version up to 2006 has a smaller engine, and less computer and other diesel system nonsense which REDUCE mileage in the newer models.

If you look critically at anecdotal accounts of Sprinter gas mileage you need to take into account all of the accounts from "expediters" i.e. cargo hauling drivers, and other tradesmen who typically drive with a serious amount of cargo, a van full of tools and metal supplies or those with very weighty RV builds. These vehicles are MUCH heavier than an unladened van or one built into camper with consideration for keeping the build light. Most T1N owners who do keep it light get over 20mpg, often 22-23 mpg.

Then, you can also buy an aftermarket "tune" which is a computer tweak which improves gas mileage and reduces emissions. Typically this will net an extra mpg or two.

scamp fiberglass tow behind trailers are pretty sweet and a subaru could tow it..

Jon H wrote:It's not subsidized at all, merely payment deferred.

The U.S. Department of Education pays the interest on a Direct Subsidized Loan
while you’re in school at least half-time,
for the first six months after you leave school (referred to as a grace period*), and
during a period of deferment (a postponement of loan payments).
source: studentaid.ed.gov/sa/types/…

Jon H wrote:You are going to pay for this van for life, no matter what. If it gets wrecked by an uninsured driver. If it gets flooded or destroyed by an act of god (often not covered under typical auto policies)

comprehensive vehicle insurance covers things like theft, rock fall and flooding
uninsured motorist insurance would cover the uninsured driver…

unless i'm missing something with all of this?
this doesn't seem like rocket science to me. obviously i'll be paying this thing off for quite a while, but assuming that I get the proper insurance, I'm having trouble understanding why this is such a bad idea.. It seems like I'll be ultimately saving money by not having to pay 500/ month on rent…

assuming the following:
van costs 15,000 after all conversions (which i feel is a decent overestimate for a fairly simple conversion)
auto insurance (with comprehensive and uninsured motorist coverage) runs at about 60/ month (i've already received quote from geico)
interest rate on loan is fixed at 4.29% (let's even negate the subsidization because i'd rather overestimate my expenses than underestimate them (but for the record, the interest would be subsidized for 11,000 of it))
i pay off van within 5 years of graduating

$15,000 x 4.29% annual interest= 643.5 interest per year x 7 years(2 years school + 5 years after)=$4504 total interest
$60/ month insurance x 84 months( 7 years)= $5040 total insurance
so for the van, plus all interest and insurance for the 7 years i'd be paying it off we're at $24,544

compare that to 7 years of renting room at 500/ month
84 months x 500/ month = $42,000

and that doesn't even take into account that i'd still be paying for car insurance if i rented a room and kept the subie.
obviously this isn't 100% accurate, there's maintenance and repairs ( as there would be on my subaru as well). but if anything, i think it's safe to say that this is a significant overestimate on the cost of obtaining said sprinter.
so assuming that the loan payments and insurance take place of rent for the length of time I'm paying off the van, that's $17,456 I'm theoretically saving. Paying the $24544 in 5 years would be $409/month, which is totally doable.

feel free to point out any holes in my logic (i'm sure there are many). I never thought I'd be hitting up a climbing forum for financial advice, but considering that the goal is maximum travel and climbing with minimal work, this seemed like the place to come to!

Is the house you can park at going to be available forever?

That's the biggest issue I see. Vans are great on road trips, I lived out of mine for a year. It was great. I also didn't need to study, go to work, or do laundry very often.

I see two scenarios.

1. You'll basically be living at your friends house, laundry, showers, fridge, internet, maybe cooking, and maybe electricity. You'll be using their toilets and their water to fill your tanks. You will essentially be a room-mate. If that's the situation, get your terms on paper and come up with a reasonable amount to pay every month for share. Less than rent but it's got to be something or they will quickly resent you for mooching and soon enough ask you to leave. $150 to $200 seems right. That brings me to scenario 2.

2. You are on your own in the big wide world in your van. You are trying to finish school but never get any work done in the van. So you spend all your time at coffee shops, $4 here and $7 there. Turns out you're spending $300 a month extra on sugar and caffeine just for a place to sit. You basically eat out all the time because cooking sucks unless you're in an actual campground. You have to shell out $50 a month for a gym membership because you have to shower, especially once you finish school and join the work force. You'll be driving your 15mpg rig a lot to charge batteries and to break up the boredom, trust me on that. More gas money. You're going to get woken up and asked to leave. Not a lot but it will happen. Laundry. Trust me on this, the scenario sucks. You're going to have monthly bills (gas, pre-prepared food, gym, laundry, etc coming in at over $500 a month that you aren't counting on).

Do I even need to mention maintenance and repairs?

I'd take a $500-$700 dumpy studio over a van every time. It'll make you appreciate your days camping and it'll give you the stability to actually perform once you get a job (you are going to school to prepare for a real job right?). 42,000 over 7 years is nothing in the scope of real employment and a lifetime of positive experiences. Don't start your adult life digging out.

Listen kid, there are some people that make what you're talking about work. They are the exception. Some expenses in life are necessary, they suck and we all bitch but you need them. A place to call home is one of those. You sound 22 and convinced, so I doubt you'll change your mind, so why bother with this thread. I wish you luck.

Hey Christian!

As a 20-something who has just finished college while "living" out of my van I can say that your plan will totally work with the right mind set and attitude (isn't that the truth with many things in life?).

I did a smaller version of what you are proposing. I didn't resign my lease but instead moved into this: mountainproject.com/v/e150s… (WARNING, SHAMELESS PLUG).

Here's a little insight... my girlfriend and I BOTH moved into this vehicle, but like someone else mentioned above, we were paying friends $200 a month to safely park at their house, use their kitchen, living space, wifi, shower etc. It was a really sweet living condition actually, they were great friends and we did spend most our time IN their house and only slept in the van, but we did it for only two and a half months... not two years. So for us there was an acute period of substantial savings, but nothing to shake a stick at if you are looking at two full years.

Anyhow, sounds like you've got a good head on your shoulders so no matter what you decide you'll make the "right" decision! Let me know if you want to fly out to CO and do a side by side Econoline comparison with mountainproject.com/v/fs-99… which is also a pretty sweet rig!

Best of luck.

Climbing friend,

I have been pondering many of the same questions you are asking. Quickly reading this thread I am psyched for you. Maybe we are naive and stupid. Maybe your life will fall apart and living in a van will really start to blow. But you probably had some rad adventures in the interim.

I don't want to be a complete dirtbag or just a traveling van/vagabond, that doesn't seem very sustainable to me. But forget the dogma! Paying too much to live in a shit apartment, paying way too much to commute to a shit job doesn't seem sustainable either. If you end up with a shitty van life at least you'll climb harder than your responsible counterpart.

I hope it works out dude! I have only ever owned a Subaru myself, so I can't offer any sound advice in the way of vehicles. However, a Toyota Previa is a very budget alternative and a great van. That doesn't seem like exactly what you're looking for, maybe you could buy two and start a small fleet.

Also a Chevy astro seems like the move.

Peter Howes wrote:However, a Toyota Previa is a very budget alternative and a great van. That doesn't seem like exactly what you're looking for, maybe you could buy two and start a small fleet. Also a Chevy astro seems like the move.

Years are approximate because I'm not going to look.

Previa's were probably the perfect van for conversion due to AWD, toyota quality, and reliability. They haven't been made since the late 90's. That means you're going to have in excess of 100k and more likely in excess of 200k to buy one today. You can make minor repairs and keep it running but older vehicles get expensive after a while.

Astro/Safari are a little bigger, way cheaper used, more available, have more power, offer a decent ride, and are one of the worst vehicles on the road. Last made in 2002 I believe, so again, you're looking at higher mileage. The power steering pump and system will go out. Sometimes a few times. The tie rods and ball joints are a known weak point, count on a $2500 front end job soon. The transmission will be leaking. You can fix it or keep pouring. It's probably not going to die but it's going to keep leaking. The entire interior is plastic and will fall off and break. That's an easy fix at the junkyard but has to be done. The engine will never fail though.

200k on a Previa is about the same as 130k on an Astro. That's also about the miles you'll find for sale unless you get lucky. Keep a solid repair budget.

Previa:

I transplanted a 4x4 hi lo transfer case, 5 speed tranny, rear limited slip differential, replaced rear springs and built front coilover struts to lift it and allow for taller tires. Now it's a better 4x4 than my old Nissan Frontier Pickup!

It's my baby 4x4 Sprinter!

And it's outfitted with auxillary battery and set up as a convertible mini camper. Good fun.

Christian C wrote:mike, when you say that the T1n has 'known' mechanical issues, what do you mean? like they're easily fixed? or ?

The list is here sprinter-rv.com/2011/11/25/…

The problems are mostly cheap fixes, but some can become expensive if you let them go too far.

Jon H wrote: You sure about that? That's very uncommon. Typically you don't have to start making payments, but the interest absolutely starts accruing the instant they cut you the check. It's not subsidized at all, merely payment deferred. Honestly, using student loans to finance a car is an absolutely terrible idea. You keep on trying to justify it, but you're digging yourself into a hole. The main reason: student loans are almost never dischargeable under bankruptcy. You are going to pay for this van for life, no matter what. If it gets wrecked by an uninsured driver. If it gets flooded or destroyed by an act of god (often not covered under typical auto policies). If, if, if. You are tying a giant albatross around your neck from which you can never escape. And unlike your education, it's a depreciating asset, from which you have absolutely no legal escape. It could theoretically work out in your favor. But if it doesn't, you are absolutely screwed. And your credit score and finances are gonna smell worse than cat piss for decades.

Wow! You must be a blast to hang out with.

My experience is, had a Scamp 12' trailer, awesome, easy to pull and comfy. You can unhook and leave it, bonus.Should cost you $4000 or less. Very good option. The other is a Ford E350 van, you don't have to tow it and you can sleep anywhere in it, and go almost un-noticed.
If you can find a 1997 to 2003 7.3 diesel with low miles it should last you, and the fuel mileage isn't bad at around 20 MPG. Maybe out of your budget.

If you search out the Scamp be sure and also look for Burro, Casita, and Uhaul, as those are also the other fiberglass options.

Mike Brady wrote: Wow! You must be a blast to hang out with.

Well, blowing sunshine up one's ass ain't much help when someone is in financial ruins. Seriously, being financially solvent should probably be the #1 priority for a young person; that's how you have capitalism work for you, instead of against you.

reboot wrote: Well, blowing sunshine up one's ass ain't much help when someone is in financial ruins. Seriously, being financially solvent should probably be the #1 priority for a young person; that's how you have capitalism work for you, instead of against you.

Wow! You must be a blast to hang out with.

Mike Brady wrote: Wow! You must be a blast to hang out with.

Wow! You must be a blast to hang out with.

Bill Kirby wrote: Wow! You must be a blast to hang out with.

:) This is kinda like looking into a mirror with another mirror behind you.

Mike Brady wrote: :) This is kinda like looking into a mirror with another mirror behind you.

I thought for sure you will write "wow you must be a blast to hang out with"

I like your reply better though! :)