Belaying Second in Guide mode - right or left?

So the only thing you can do to backup a belay in guide mode (forget backup knots for a second) is keep your hand on the brake strand and should anything go wrong and bring the rope behind the ATC in a "normal" ground level belay?

This would be easy if the device is at your waist level or below, how about if the device is above and it would be hard to brake manually should guide mode not catch? I am assuming you would need to extend the anchor/bring the device lower where you would be able to perform this easier?

Roman G wrote:So the only thing you can do to backup a belay in guide mode (forget backup knots for a second) is keep your hand on the brake strand and should anything go wrong and bring the rope behind the ATC in a "normal" ground level belay? This would be easy if the device is at your waist level or below, how about if the device is above and it would be hard to brake manually should guide mode not catch? I am assuming you would need to extend the anchor/bring the device lower where you would be able to perform this easier?

Redirect the brake strand up through a higher piece on the anchor so that it is in a "braked" position and you are pulling down on the strand and not trying to pull up to maintain control. I really only use this to help control a lower though and it is not a default setup for normal belaying. Sorry if my description is a little hard to understand. I can't think of a better way to describe it.

csproul wrote: Redirect the brake strand up through a higher piece on the anchor so that it is in a "braked" position and you are pulling down on the strand and not trying to pull up to maintain control. I really only use this to help control a lower though and it is not a default setup for normal belaying. Sorry if my description is a little hard to understand. I can't think of a better way to describe it.

Yes that was the other way I forgot to mention, to redirect the brake strand.

Far too many people I know belay in guide mode hands free, meaning only use the brake strand to take up the slack, everyone from experienced leaders to guides and I have seen this time and time again.

And I my self have done this up until this thread as well ( with back up knots at intervals )

Russ Keane wrote: Sorry but I do NOT want some average Joe leader trying to do this while I am dangling in space.

Theoretically anyone leading multi pitch or belaying single pitches longer than half a rope length should be pretty comfortable with MMO's and knowing how to transfer a load. For emergency lowering/escaping the belay, the guide delivers perfectly acceptable performance. Routine feeding of slack is where the performance is lackluster.

I read anti-tech statements as ignorance. Guide mode = sliced bread. If your partner sucks in guide mode they probably suck all the time.

gription wrote:I read anti-tech statements as ignorance. Guide mode = sliced bread. If your partner sucks in guide mode they probably suck all the time.

I don't really believe this to be true IMO. I have had lots of partners, who are otherwise completely competent, give bad belays with a Guide/reverso type device in "guide mode". I think they have a time and a place and I am not against these devices, but I do think it is all too common for people to belay a follower by alternating either yarding them up a climb or leaving too much slack. Without a conscious effort on the part of the belayer, I really do believe that some of the feel of the belay is lost when using guide-mode. I also think that there are significant reasons to be concerned about being lowered with a guide-device. Yes, it can be done efficiently and safely, but few (otherwise competent) belayers practice these less-used techniques, whereas lowering someone from a re-direct or off of your harness is much more intuitive since most of us do this more often and don't really need additional practice doing so.

If u r using a guide plate where it should be used then the "feel" of the belay for the second should be of minimal concern providing there is minimal slack out

On multis where you need to get to the top before the weather comes in the second aint there to hangdog and try to TR free the pitch so they can tick off a "top rope send" on MP

They are there to get up the pitch ASAP and not cause traffic jams or delays

To put it simply the second is there to be a belay biatch and provide support for the leader ...

When you got 12+ pitches to climb before the afternoon thunderstorms and/or nightfall ... And folks at the belays behind you ... Stop faffing around and go up

;)

Jake Jones wrote: Em Cos had an excellent suggestion above- which is a good idea when you're multi-pitching anything. Carry something that can be used as a friction hitch(s)- and more importantly know how to use them to get yourself up.

Prusicks are mandatory. If you don't have them (or a sling or something you can use for a kleimheist) and know how to use them, you don't belong multipitch climbing.

So, to begin practicing top belays (garage, friendly one pitch sport, whatever, I do mean practice, so holster the flame throwers) and associated stuff to go with it, what would you start with? Device? Terrain belay? Hitch(es)?

This turned into a great thread. Not just info, but the reasons for the myriad choices. Latter more helpful IMO

JCM wrote: .... I will belay off my harness and never weight the anchor (even if the second falls). ...

You've obviously never climbed with me ;)

Old lady H wrote:Thank you, healyje! Since that Peregrine stock you fought for probably came from my town, where the raptor folks are now working on Condors... And if you refer to Beacon Rock in the Gorge, which historically had condors, hmmm...reintroduction of essentially pterodactyls? Might suddenly up the cooperation.

You're welcome.

Old lady H wrote:...how, how, how, am I expected to make all the critically important judgements required all the time in climbing, which I have to make right now, or you know, yer gonna die, when everything is contradicted by someone else somewhere?

You do have to decide who to trust and that, I will admit, can be difficult in and of itself.

Old lady H wrote:Case in point: Taught to belay by climber number 1, with ATC (basic, level ground, top rope belay). Climber one says brake hand down by hip. Literally next person who sees me belaying corrects me. "That's old school! It's much easier/better/safer with your brake hand in front of you, under the ATC." Really? Just an example, that seems to be the rule, not the exception, and its my life you're messing with.

Wherever you hold your hand with an ATC, you want to be aware at all times of the angle between the climber strand and the brake strand. I've seen a lot of folks using both methods holding that angle way too narrow thus inviting serious trouble.

As far the hip goes, you can get substantial increases in friction with the rope across your hip, but you don't need to have your hand parked down there all the time so much as be capable of getting it there in a fall. However, most folks newer to belaying should probably just lock it up until such a time where they have the wherewithal to think and react more fluidly during a fall and that just takes time and experience.

Hey, nice surprise to find your reply!

So, by the angle being too low between the two strands of rope, do you mean brake hand not kept low? Basically, asleep at the wheel?

Old lady H wrote:Hey, nice surprise to find your reply! So, by the angle being too low between the two strands of rope, do you mean brake hand not kept low? Basically, asleep at the wheel?

I think he means not keeping the strands close to each other as shown in the second set of pictures here:

people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/hig…

David Coley wrote: I think he means not keeping the strands close to each other as shown in the second set of pictures here: people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/hig…

Ah, yes. Next best hand position to fingers up your nose. Nice link, lots of stuff to look at.

Old lady H wrote:...lots of stuff to look at.

David has probably already answered 90% of the questions that have been or will ever be posted on MP.

rgold wrote: David has probably already answered 90% of the questions that have been or will ever be posted on MP.

You may be underestimating my ability to be clueless. I have a couple more tangential questions, but I'm going to take them out to different threads. Still gonna follow this one, though!

Frank PS wrote:

FrankPS wrote: Here's a video that demonstrates how to perform a weighted lower (there are other variations, but these work fine): youtube.com/watch?v=LLHGGaC…

I lost concentration halfway through the video as the phrase Munter hitch kept surging through my brain. Anyway, it’s not a procedure I would want to execute in Cowwed conditions (cold, windy, wet and dark)

Em Cos wrote: As a follower, if I fall off something and find myself hanging in space, that's what my prussiks are for. In which case, whether I am the follower ascending the rope or the belayer, I'm just as happy to have the security of the locking belay off the anchor. …

As EC correctly implied, knowing how to prusik (n.b., this is the correct spelling though purists might insist that the word should start with upper case even when used as a verb) is a required skill, but the advisability of prusiking versus being lowered is situational even when hanging in space. If the rope from belayer to climber goes over a sharp edge, the seesawing action of the rope against the edge presents a hazard. Some well-known fatalities have occurred because of this. Early in my climbing career, one of my regular climbing partners, a really bold leader, found himself in a situation where, hanging in space, he had to prusik about 15 feet. By the time he reached the ledge, his 11 mm rope had been cut halfway through. The experience was so frightening that he had a religious epiphany, became devout and quit climbing. For many years, the cut section of the rope hung at the entrance of the old Mountain Shop in Ft. Collins.

A sharp edge against the rope and hanging in open space can even occur on easy climbs, especially if there’s traversing. A good example of this is the first two pitches of Pseudo Sidetrack in Eldorado

mountainproject.com/v/pseud…

A second falling here can easily end up hanging in space with the rope over a sharp edge. This actually happened about 20 years ago. The best bet here is to lower the second to the ground. (And, of course this is especially where differences of opinion occur as to whether it’s safer using a standard belay versus a guide-mode belay.) In the case cited, a couple of good climbers quickly soloed up to the belayer to save the day. It was perhaps fortunate that neither of the beginning climbers had any knowledge of prusiking.

Overhangs can present problems, if the lie of the rope is snug against the rock as one surmounts the overhang. In this case, with the rope fully weighted and pressing against the rock, attaching and removing the Prusik slings can be difficult. In Cowwed conditions, this can go from difficult to impossible. Here the safest action may be to lower the climber to a safe stance if that can be done. Of course, if the anchor is not directly above the earlier belay stance, lowering to a safe stance might not be possible so that prusiking might be necessary even with risks that involves. A troubling situation is when the rope rubs against a sharp rock set back a bit and not visible to either climber.

There is also a comfort issue. It’s one thing to climb a rope with Jumars and stirrups. It’s just uncomfortable to prusik more than 10 feet or so using slings and wearing thin climbing shoes. If the choice is prusiking 50 feet versus being lowered and moving, say, to the left or right to climb something easier, it’s an option that should be considered for safety as well as comfort.

Enough sermonizing, of which this thread contains a lot so let us rise and sing:

Upward older climbers as in days of yore
With the hitch of Munter saving us from gore.

RobertusPunctumPacificus

1. People advocating a position ought to be able to support their claims with reasoning that makes sense to you.

This is probably the biggest of the points, and the one I make to people who ask me, too. I often end up teaching people stuff, and I try to explain the reason why I make or suggest specific choices. I do this for a couple reasons. It allows the person to judge whether or not my advice is good. And, it allows them to decide when my advice applies, when it doesn't, and to reason from the solution to a particular problem to (hopefully) the more general case and then solve a different but similar problem. If they just get a set answer, from authority, they won't have the basis to extend that applicability.

How is a hip belay? Is a hip belay okay to use? I was scolded on Royal Arches for using a hip belay on my partner. When asked what I would do if I needed to render assistance to my partner I said I would just lower him down to one of the hundreds of ledges on the route and most likely five feet below him. The point is that there is no one right way or one way to do things. A hip belay on when moving fast on moderate ground is fine, I use guide mode when belaying two seconds on Snake Dike and that works fine. Don't get pigeon holed into one way of doing things, have lots of tools to draw from your bag of tricks.