Advice needed - Good book on scrambling technique?

Tico wrote:Get her skiing.

She is a level 2 PSIA ski instructor (and skis way better than I do) so apparently that doesn't help much either.

Thanks everyone for the good advice.

Give up.
That's my advice.
Accept that after all attempts to improve, there will still be a large gap between her scrambling speed + capability and yours.

Instead focus on finding new ways that you can do things together (or coordinated in the same general location at the same time) - which you both enjoy. Read Eric Chabot's post above carefully.

Human physiology and biochemistry varies widely across the general population, and even across athletes. Two people can put in the same training + practice effort but get a very different level of results. With my long-time outdoor companion Sharon, we both know one of the key unexpected biochemical factors that limits her performance. But human biochemistry is very complicated, so there could be substantial limiters on a person's performance in some specific activity which no one yet knows how to test chemically.

Specific neural/mental capabilies and specific emotional history also varies widely. Someone who has had a previous serious bad outcome while scrambling might now be unable to generate the confidence needed for fast effective scrambling.

Or someone who had an outcome which their unconscious mind _interpreted_ as a serious bad outcome (even though you or I would not) while doing some activity which their unconscious mind now _interprets_ as being "like" scrambling (even though it seems obviously different to you and me) - might now be blocked by their unconscious mind from confident scrambling. Even if their conscious mind now sincerely wants to develop more confidence and better skill.

There might be some therapeutic solution to such an unconscious block, but it's rather unlikely that _you_ are going to be accepted as the successful therapist.

I do think that leg strength, arm assistance with poles, pack weight, body weight, and ratios of those are all important for scrambling performance. And Sharon and i have seriously worked on all of them for years.
For example, I normally carry all our group climbing gear, and often some of her personal gear (e.g. water bottle). Sometimes I simply attach her whole pack to mine, so she carries nearly nothing.

But my speed and capability scrambling is still way superior to hers. Funny thing is that she _enjoys_ much scrambling and off-trail exploration (as she enjoys climbing).

We love being out together, so the only realistic approach is to choose our activities to work around that gap in scrambling. I spend lots of time scouting for favorable locations (easy for me since I enjoy reading guidebooks and getting out exploring).
Most of my multi-pitch climbing I now do with other partners.

Ken

kenr wrote:Give up. That's my advice. Accept that after all attempts to improve, there will still be a large gap between her scrambling speed + capability and yours. Instead focus on finding new ways that you can do things together (or coordinated in the same general location at the same time) - which you both enjoy - (read Eric Chabot's post above carefully). Human physiology and biochemistry varies widely across the general population, and even across athletes. Two people can put in the same training + practice effort but a very different level of results. With my long-time outdoor companion Sharon, we both know one of the key unexpected biochemical factors that limits her performance. But human biochemistry is very complicated, so there could be substantial limiters on specific performance which no one knows how to test chemically. Specific neural/mental capabilies and specific emotional history also varies widely. Someone who has had a previous serious bad outcome while scrambling might now be unable to generate the confidence needed for fast effective scrambling. Or someone who had an outcome which their unconscious mind _interpreted_ as a serious bad outcome (even though you or I would not) while doing some activity which their unconscious mind now _interprets_ as being "like" scrambling (even though it seems obviously different to you and me) - might now be blocked by their unconscious mind from confident scrambling. Even if their own conscious mind now sincerely wants to develop more confidence and better skill. There might be some therapeutic solution to such an unconscious block, but it's rather unlikely that _you_ are going to be accepted as the successful therapist. I do think that leg strength, arm assistance with poles, pack weight, body weight, and ratios of those are all important for scrambling performance. And Sharon and i have seriously worked on all of them for years. For example, I normally carry all our group climbing gear, and often some of her personal gear (e.g. water bottle). Sometimes I simply attach her whole pack to mine, so she carries nearly nothing. But my speed and capability scrambling is still way superior to hers. Funny thing is that she enjoys scrambling and off-trail exploration (as she enjoys climbing). We love being out together, so the only realistic approach is to choose our activities to work around that gap in scrambling. Most of my multi-pitch climbing I do with other partners. Ken

Ken
thanks for the advice.

I don't necessarily need her to go at my speed. I realize I'm fairly fast and am used to people not keeping up. I've climbed with lots of people that don't go my speed. And I've had lots of fun climbing with them (and I still do manage to have fun with my fiancé). But she is beyond just not being fast or up to my speed. When we go out in a group, I always end up carrying her entire pack and she still cannot keep up (not just with me, but with the entire group - which often includes other people I would consider slow).

Maybe you are right though. Maybe I should give up, but the funny part is that a lot of these trips are trips that she picks out. It's not like I'm forcing her to do anything. Honestly the going slow part is often quite frustrating and annoying, but I can deal with that. What I really worry about is safety when it comes to afternoon thunderstorms and the like.

Get an earlier start and stop whining. At least she is awesome enough to want to be out in the mountains and try things that are a challenge for her, even likely knowing that she is slow. Be grateful that you have such an awesome woman in you life. And if you don't appreciate her, maybe move on and let someone else be with her that will appreciate her.

I agree with Ken.

1. Your girlfriend needs to realistically assess her abilities.

2. You need to understand that many skills learned as an adult do not develop to the degree that a child's skills would.

3. Figure out what activities are good for you together.

4. Don't expect miracles from books.

I've also got a girlfriend who is relatively new to scrambling, and have been giving the topic a lot of thought. The most important thing is patience, and lots of it. As to what you ultimately need to scramble fast, I'd say its confidence, precision (much like climbing, your contact point shouldn't move once placed), good muscle tone, and lots of practice.

I have the advantage of having started as a very slow, insecure, scrambler, and can reflect back to what made me better. The key ti my progress was lots of long (multuple 8-12hr days) hikes on rough but unexposed terrain with a stupidly heavy pack. The heavy pack (counterintuitively) forced me to be careful (slow), and was great for building the right muscle tone. Lots of repetition over long days meant that I effectively got most of the possible 'moves' dialled. When the pack comes off, everything is dramatically easier, and you gain a lot of confidence. The long days were important, as by the end, I was sufficiently exhausted that I stopped caring as much, started stumbling, slipping, and falling, but importantly realising that a small slip is not that bad, and learning how to recover from small slips. Slipping is an early form of dynamic movement, and knowing that you can recover control after a slip is essential to fast movement. A lot of this was distinctly 'type 2 fun' - i.e. it was bloody miserable at the tine, and whether you want to put your girlfriend through it, and whether your relationship would survive is a judgement call.

A less intimidating way to improve speed is good, semi-rigid, boots with a sticky but firm rubber sole (ie lightweight mountaineering boots, or, at a pinch approach shoes). These will help immensely with precision and allowing you to effectively weight the point where your boot contacts the rock, rather than having the boot move under you as you weight it. I'm not a fan of poles, as, although they will give a short term confidence boost, they will ultimately limit speed, the acquisition of good balance, and adaptability to steeper/rougher terrain.

The other thing you might find is that there could be certain muscle groups which could need a targeted workout. My GF, for example, has difficulty maintaining full control whilst making large steps downhill.

Gretchen 81 wrote:Get an earlier start and stop whining. At least she is awesome enough to want to be out in the mountains and try things that are a challenge for her, even likely knowing that she is slow. Be grateful that you have such an awesome woman in you life. And if you don't appreciate her, maybe move on and let someone else be with her that will appreciate her.

I am all about getting an early start. Unfortunately she is not a morning person. However she is starting to come around after we nearly got struck by lightning for the second time. Hence part of my concern about being able to get down before the proverbial afternoon thunderstorm.

And I do appreciate her and realize I am lucky. However what is wrong with trying to help her improve?

Greg Petliski wrote:I like to jog down the trail when I'm out on a hike or a light backpacking trip, even on steep stuff like the Adirondacks (personal best was about 3,000 feet down over 3.8 miles in 1 hr 15 mins with a 25 lb pack)...

Your knees are gonna totally hate you in another 20 yrs if you keep that stuff up!

I feel like I remember Doug Robinson having written some cool stuff on talus running, maybe Google that?

Also, are her knees OK? I was (and often still am) awfully slow on really steep descents (particularly with a pack) and for years just assumed it was lack of fitness (even though I'm actually in OK shape) . Finally saw a PT and it turns out I've had chronic tendinitis in my knees for a really long time and have been babying them without even knowing it. This started in my late 20's I think.

Lastly, it may just be that the terrain you're taking her on may be too intense (ie scary) for her and you need to find a new activity (or dial the difficulty way down) before your love of the mountains loses you a girlfriend.

Greg Petliski wrote: I honestly feel that by keeping the momentum going, I'm not impacting them too greatly. Go slow, or go real fast, its the middle ground that gets ya.

Scrambling/hiking is like skiing, the best go down(or up) with little or no effort. Also with both you also need a "go for it" attitude or you end up putting on the brakes too often which does hurt the knees. That and being fat and/or out of shape...

My two cents: you don't need a book, you need a way to take the pressure off of her. Even if you're slowing way down and successfully faking that it's not frustrating you, she's probably still feeling pressure and so likely won't improve very quickly at that rate. You need to find a way to address that.

You might also consider that because you're so much better and faster than her, she has actually improved, and you just haven't noticed.

Chances are, given the way you're describing it, she's picked up on how you feel about her lack of speed. The first thing I'd do in your situation is consider how she's feeling, then look for ways to positively encourage her without making her feel pressured. Shorter trips so she can go slower, and be okay with cutting the trip short. Maybe you take a detour to go "look at something" and tell her you'll meet up "over there". That way she can go at her own pace. Don't sit out in view waiting, plan to make it there just about when she does, or hang back til she gets close so she doesn't feel she has to go quicker because you're waiting on her.

If all that fails, accept that maybe she's not the right back country partner for you and don't take all your trips with her.

I have no expertise in this field of discussion but 1, I am a climber 2, father of 3 and 3, Manager of a ropes course in Moab. Possibly something very basic should be established is how good is your girlfriends balance and also eye sight. Good or bad balance can be inherited as it is a function of your inner ear. I'll never be a slackliner as I have always had poor balance but I try. You can fine tune you balance a bit with practice. Some people are just better at it naturally. So make sure she has no inner problems, such as food or other allergies or anything else that might effect her inner ear and thus her balance.

Also eye sight can be related to some of the things mentioned. I'm blind in one eye so I have no depth perception. Everything is learned but mine was from birth so I know no different. Plus being far sighted and wearing bifocals messes with boulder hopping and the such. Point being if she needs glasses wear them or maybe check to she if she does need them.

Practice is good, so she needs to get out and do it if everything else is good.

Stagg54 wrote:...my fiancé...is just PAINFULLY slow...

You may have answered your own question. If she is in pain she would be hesitant. She may also be hesitant to complain or communicate her issues.

"Solvitur ambulando"

climbing friend,

Have you tried enticing her to go faster with a tasty luna bar as reward most delicious for climber of female type? Perhaps you may explain how painful and frustrating and disappointing, and what a burden it is on you, and how you hardly enjoy this time at all to have to do the waiting for her?

I am not trying to beat a dead horse, but sometimes dead horses need a beating!

Gretchen 81 wrote:

Get an earlier start and stop whining. At least she is awesome enough to want to be out in the mountains and try things that are a challenge for her, even likely knowing that she is slow. Be grateful that you have such an awesome woman in you life. And if you don't appreciate her, maybe move on and let someone else be with her that will appreciate her. /Gretchen

I am all about getting an early start. Unfortunately she is not a morning person. However she is starting to come around after we nearly got struck by lightning for the second time. Hence part of my concern about being able to get down before the proverbial afternoon thunderstorm. And I do appreciate her and realize I am lucky. However what is wrong with trying to help her improve?

Wow, people, Stagg has taken a lot of flack from people for honestly trying to find help with an issue that plagues his attempts to go out with his other half.

I can relate directly. My wife is freakin' short, and her heart races at sea level when climbing hills with a pack on. We found out early on that we just have different physical abilities. She used to get frustrated when I hiked up ahead of her, insisting that I hike behind her. I definitely like the view as anchor, but it hurts to hike slow when I carry most of the weight and need to get the climb done.

We settled on me shredding trail and pausing for her to catch up, so long as there are no risky areas that she wants backup on. When she wants a break, I am glad to have the pack off my bony hips. From this compromise, we each get in that mode of finding our physical maximum. On the flats, we hike next to each other and talk. Life is good. She and I both understand that I climb on a higher level, so I set and clean any routes she wants and she belays me on a couple difficult routes. At the end of the day, we relax at camp and lick our wounds.

As to guidance on the skills, there doesn't seem to be anything one can say to improve scrambling other than doing more of it. I know that with trekking poles, my wife doesn't use them the same way I do. As mentioned above, I push forward with my poles so my feet keep me up, and that allows me to go from 3 to 3.5 mph, a gain of a few miles per day. She will not listen to my advice on how to use them better, so I stopped trying. She will figure it out in due time if she wants. I enjoy my pauses by taking pictures, gathering edibles, and getting our bearings.

She really enjoys going on all girl treks and climbing trips, and I enjoy going on some at-the-limits climbs with my homies. Hopefully this helps. Pick the easier summits, pre-hike as high as you feel comfortable, take a smaller summit pack for her to the top, return to your gear that was left behind, and make the retreat in good time. Smile patiently and enjoy the scenery. Love her for who she is... it sounds like you are already doing this. Good job.

Now, let's bury that horse.