Bolted anchor biner replacement

eli poss wrote: Perhaps this is true, but to somebody who isn't used to them, they may seem less safe than a pair of biners. What about hypothetical gumbies that think they're unsafe and decide to lower through the quicklinks/chains attaching them to the anchor? Then you get a kinky rope, and not the good kind of kinky. Plus, they're more expensive than the Trango steel biners and when I'm paying out of pocket I'm going to go with the cheapest option that doesn't sacrifice safety or durability. Also, we have a problem here in Durango, with asshats stealing fixed hardware so the pin on the steel biners is a necessity.

who cares if gumbys are kinking their own rope, that's their choice and doesn't affect you in any way. If the ramshorns (especially Ti) last 10 times as long as the biners, then you have to replace the biners less often so it makes up for the difference in cost. As far as steeling the fixed hardware, yeah, that's probably not going to happen with ramshorns since there really isn't any use for them other than as an anchor.

Personally I do like biners more than ramshorns, but only because they are generally easier to get the rope into. Anywhere that clipping the anchor is nice and easy I see no reason to use biners over a ramshorn.

Also, I know some places are going to double ramshorns which I find kind of retarded, a ramshorn anchor only needs a single ramshorn not two of them, so again, the cost is pretty much irrelevant as one Ti ramshorn costs almost the same as two trango biners.

kennoyce wrote: who cares if gumbys are kinking their own rope, that's their choice and doesn't affect you in any way. If the ramshorns (especially Ti) last 10 times as long as the biners, then you have to replace the biners less often so it makes up for the difference in cost. As far as steeling the fixed hardware, yeah, that's probably not going to happen with ramshorns since there really isn't any use for them other than as an anchor. Personally I do like biners more than ramshorns, but only because they are generally easier to get the rope into. Anywhere that clipping the anchor is nice and easy I see no reason to use biners over a ramshorn. Also, I know some places are going to double ramshorns which I find kind of retarded, a ramshorn anchor only needs a single ramshorn not two of them, so again, the cost is pretty much irrelevant as one Ti ramshorn costs almost the same as two trango biners.

I mean double ramshorns was probably what I was going to do mostly due to the fact that I'd be using them to replace faulty/worn biners.

thebmags wrote: I mean double ramshorns was probably what I was going to do mostly due to the fact that I'd be using them to replace faulty/worn biners.

What's your reasoning for going double? Just connect a single ramshorn to the bottom of the two chains for a "V" anchor, extend the chains if needed, but there's no real reason to use two ramshorns.

kennoyce wrote: What's your reasoning for going double?

From titanclimbing.com/ram%27s-h… :

All titanium Ram's horns lower off. These are designed to be used in pairs placed 200mm horizontally apart...

I hadn't seen Ram's Horns until this thread. I'm intrigued. Very nice.

Jason Halladay wrote: From titanclimbing.com/ram%27s-h… : All titanium Ram's horns lower off. These are designed to be used in pairs placed 200mm horizontally apart... I hadn't seen Ram's Horns until this thread. I'm intrigued. Very nice.

That seems like a pain to me, my only experience with ramshorns comes from climbing in Germany, and at least there, I only ever saw a single ramshorn with seems sufficient for lowering off to me. Using double just seems like it would be awkward to use.

Calling Jim Titt, any good reason for using double ramshorns?

kennoyce wrote: What's your reasoning for going double? Just connect a single ramshorn to the bottom of the two chains for a "V" anchor, extend the chains if needed, but there's no real reason to use two ramshorns.

Mostly due to the fact its going to be a quick replacement and not lugging chains around in the pack. There's a good portion of anchors I've seen that don't have a single master point or have the chain is too short and forms an obtuse "V".

You're right though for chains that fit the profile it'd be much easier and smarter to use a single ramshorn

Edit: spelling

Jason Halladay wrote: From titanclimbing.com/ram%27s-h… : All titanium Ram's horns lower off. These are designed to be used in pairs placed 200mm horizontally apart... I hadn't seen Ram's Horns until this thread. I'm intrigued. Very nice.

They are new to most of us as of this year. Another silly Euro import :)
After some use, I have decided I like them!

Biners or Ram's horns certainly add convenience and an additional bit of safety in that the climber doesn't have to untie and re-tie/rappel. And for popular routes in busy locations, it makes things faster.

I'm really impressed with the lack of wear of the titanium Ram's Horns. Nice data point, J. Byrnes.

Jason Halladay wrote:Biners or Ram's horns certainly add convenience and an additional bit of safety in that the climber doesn't have to untie and re-tie/rappel. And for popular routes in busy locations, it makes things faster. I'm really impressed with the lack of wear of the titanium Ram's Horns. Nice data point, J. Byrnes.

Agreed, this may turn out to be the only thread without a shouting match because of that quality data. In a side note wear do you get your ramhorns?

What I could find so far were just euro companies and would cost (I'm assuming) a buttload in shipping

eli poss wrote:I am interested in Ti's resistance to wear, though, so I wish Titan made Ti Biners like the the steel ones trango makes. I'd love to never need to replace the anchor biners at my home crag

I have tried to get two different biner companies to make, or at least prototype, Ti biners for sport/gym lowering anchors. Neither was interested.

It could be because they were afraid of titanium (lots of people are), or that steel biners are good enough, and producing an "eternal" biner would cut into their profits.

kennoyce wrote: Calling Jim Titt, any good reason for using double ramshorns?

Better to ask Martin. I'll point him to this thread.

Jason Halladay wrote:I'm really impressed with the lack of wear of the titanium Ram's Horns. Nice data point, J. Byrnes.

Thanks, but remember that it's only ONE data-point.

I think Martin was planning on doing some abrasion testing, but I don't know if he did it, or if he did, what the results were.

If you really wanted to compare the durability of SS and TI rams horns it would be interesting to use one of each at the anchor on a popular sport route since that way they would be experiencing identical wear.

ramshorns are awesome! nice to see them this year at the top of Underdog. They may seem daunting at first but once you use them, you will never want anything else. so easy to use and secure.

John Byrnes wrote: I have tried to get two different biner companies to make, or at least prototype, Ti biners for sport/gym lowering anchors. Neither was interested. It could be because they were afraid of titanium (lots of people are), or that steel biners are good enough, and producing an "eternal" biner would cut into their profits.

Have you asked Titan to make them? It seems to me that Titan would be more likely to do so because they are already in the business of Titanium and they seem to be more concerned with sustainability than profit. On the other hand, they may not because they already make the ramshorns which the biners would compete with. I'd ask them myself but I thought it may be more effective if someone well known or familiar to them did so.

And as for the issue of using clips/ramshorns rather than simple rings or quicklinks, they are very nice when it starts raining on you while you're climbing

eli poss wrote: Have you asked Titan to make them? It seems to me that Titan would be more likely to do so because they are already in the business of Titanium and they seem to be more concerned with sustainability than profit.

I did not, because at the time (several years ago) Titan Climbing was just a glint in Martin's eye. I don't think anyone but him knew his plans.

Subsequently, he's had plenty to do just establishing his current products. He knows the issues. I trust him make good product decisions.

kennoyce wrote: That seems like a pain to me, my only experience with ramshorns comes from climbing in Germany, and at least there, I only ever saw a single ramshorn with seems sufficient for lowering off to me. Using double just seems like it would be awkward to use. Calling Jim Titt, any good reason for using double ramshorns?

Agreed - Two rams horns horizontally placed sounds worse than the hated single ring Fixe setups. An inline rams horn would be ideal or more a french style with a rams horn on top and a secondary biner on the bottom that doesn't see wear.

mattm wrote: Agreed - Two rams horns horizontally placed sounds worse than the hated single ring Fixe setups. An inline rams horn would be ideal or more a french style with a rams horn on top and a secondary biner on the bottom that doesn't see wear.

agreed, a French style anchor with a ramshorn up top and a biner on the lower bolt would be perfect.

I just got a short email from Martin, who will jump in here when he gets a chance.

But he said my statement "titanium lasts ten times longer than stainless" is definitely jumping the gun.

A standard abrasion test, ASTM G65, shows that Ti wears half as well as stainless. However, that test may not reflect the real world with nylon ropes and climbers' weights. Martin says more practical testing needs to be done before making claims, and my experience on the Brac may simply be due to the low number of climbers who go there (usually a good thing).

Okay, so I was wrong. Maybe.

John Byrnes wrote:I just got a short email from Martin, who will jump in here when he gets a chance. But he said my statement "titanium lasts ten times longer than stainless" is definitely jumping the gun. A standard abrasion test, ASTM G65, shows that Ti wears half as well as stainless. However, that test may not reflect the real world with nylon ropes and climbers' weights. Martin says more practical testing needs to be done before making claims, and my experience on the Brac may simply be due to the low number of climbers who go there (usually a good thing). Okay, so I was wrong. Maybe.

Thanks for clearing it up, right now I think we can all agree Ti is superior in performance but are just trying to figure out if its worth the extra cost (would explain why no one seems to be making steel biners though)