Maximum weight differential between belayer and climber on lead?

Sorry for the punching comment, I would never actually punch my belayer, or probably anyone. Just a (perhaps failed) attempt at levity while still trying to make the point that I would be very upset if my belayer unclipped my anchor draw after I got one single piece in. I like to keep MORE than one single piece of gear between myself and the hospital whenever possible, and would be upset if my belayer messed with my protection system like that while I was on lead.

I still think it's a strange piece of advice to throw out as something that is "very important" and should always be done.

If the situation presents a safety risk, I'd prefer to solve it by anchoring the belayer against upward pull or using a different belay device that does not have this failure mode, rather than reduce the party's safety in that way.

I have caught partners double my weight and did not consider it an issue. I generally climb multi-pitch trad, so the belayer is anchored, and I use an ATC Guide. A light belayer, if he or she is an experienced climber, should have more than enough strength to handle the situation. Some lifting up may take place, but in my experience it has been surprisingly rare, even in case of serious whippers. (Yes, you do fly on sport climbs, of course.)

Marta Reece wrote:I have caught partners double my weight and did not consider it an issue. I generally climb multi-pitch trad, so the belayer is anchored, and I use an ATC Guide. A light belayer, if he or she is an experienced climber, should have more than enough strength to handle the situation. Some lifting up may take place, but in my experience it has been surprisingly rare, even in case of serious whippers.

Impressive. As with all tube devices, diameter of the rope make a difference. Also, do you wear gloves when you belay someone twice your weight? I am asking because I almost lost control of the rope once when a leader who is +45# on me took a whip three draws up with very little friction in the system, with a 9.8 or 9.7 mm rope. I was using an ATC (non Guide) at that time. I have above average grip strength for a climber my size and experience (20+ years).

Em Cos wrote: I'm not sure I'm understanding the problem you are trying to solve here. You say the belayer should be anchored down to prevent the belay device from hitting the first bolt. Then you say on multipitch it's important for the belayer to unclip the belay station draw on a multipitch route after the leader has the first piece in. ??? 1. On a multipitch route, the belayer should already be anchored in. 2. If your grigri still causes a problem even when you are anchored in, just use a different belay device. Don't undermine your leader's protection system by unclipping one of their only two points of protection. I hope I'm misunderstanding you, and I think I must be because this is one of the weirder pieces of advice I've seen lately. But for fuck's sake, if I clipped the anchor to prevent a factor 2 fall onto the anchor, which may prevent a fall that could endanger both climber and belayer, and then after clipping one single additional piece of gear, I looked down and saw my belayer unclipping my rope from the anchor..... I would probably downclimb, tie-in, and punch them in the face.

The belayer is anchored into the belay station. However, the belayer is not totally anchored against any movement whatsoever. The belayer can still get pulled upward about four feet or so depending on the length of his tether. When the leader clips the belay station, there is typically only maybe 2' or so of rope between the GriGri and the bottom of the quickdraw the leader used to clip the belay. That means if the leader falls, the belayer will very easily get pulled straight into the quickdraw on the belay station. If the GriGri hits the first piece, regardless if it's the first bolt on a sport route or the first draw attached to the belay station, the draw can pin open the cam on the GriGri resulting in a loss of control of the belay.

There are ways around this. The belayer can tie a stopper knot in the rope 20' down in case the cam gets pinned open. The belayer could lower down below the belay station to reduce the fall factor. The belayer could use an ATC, although it's questionable if an ATC can catch a long, high FF fall, but that's a different issue.

In any case, this is a serious concern as the cam on the GriGri can get pined open quite easily if it slams into the first piece. I meant to say to unclip the belay when it's safe so as to prevent this issue. I see people on sport routes who clip 12 bolts and somehow the belay station is still clipped. What happens when the leader wings off at the end of the pitch and the belayer gets pulled right into the first draw that's still connected to the belay? That's the problem here.

20 kN wrote:There are ways around this. The belayer can tie a stopper knot in the rope 20' down in case the cam gets pinned open. The belayer could lower down below the belay station to reduce the fall factor.

2 words:
Munter hitch

20 kN wrote: I meant to say to unclip the belay when it's safe so as to prevent this issue.

That makes sense, thanks for the explanation. It was the "as soon as the leader has one piece in" that caught my attention. Substitute "when it's safe" and I don't think we have any disagreement.

So I'm new to lead climbing and I'm wondering if my fiancé will be able to belay me. I know I'm heavier for a rock climber, I'm 190lbs without any gear.  Shes 105lbs. Is it possible for her to belay me when lead climbing? She belays me when top roping in the gym all the time.

Anything is possible. Just tie her down out of the line of fire and you'll be fine. I got 20 lbs on ya and my belayers don't bitch to much.

Tyler Phillips wrote: Anything is possible. Just tie her down out of the line of fire and you'll be fine.

Yep, use a ground anchor for her.

FrankPS wrote: If the belayer is the heavier, it doesn't make a difference. If the climber is heavier, it makes minimal difference. I don't think there's a point where you would need to decline to belay a heavier leader. I understand the concern about yanking your belayer up to the first piece/bolt. You can compensate for the heavier climber by anchoring the belayer. And I doubt there is a magic number for this. Edit: I don't know what you mean by caliber of the climb, but I think fall factor will determine how hard the belayer gets yanked up or when you are worried the belayer can't catch the fall.

As a 200 lb person who has yanked people into the first bolt, you are completely incorrect. There are several bad things that can happen:

1. Belayer drops climber as belay device gets rammed into first piece of pro.
2. Climber impacts belayer, potentially quite severely.
3. Climber hits the ground if the first bolt is high.
4. Climber is so far away from where they fell that it's too much work to dog back up (annoying).

Anchoring the belayer sucks for a couple of reasons:

1. Difficult to give a good belay because they can't move around, give out slack as easy, etc.
2. The force of impact on the tied in belayer can be quite violent & painful as they get jerked to a halt.

In my experience, it's only really an issue on relatively over-hanging climbs with very straight pro. Steel biners (perma-draws) also seem to reduce the friction in the system and lead to much bigger falls. I've had falls where I was less than a body length above the last draw end up in 30' falls where I came dangerously close to beheading my belayer.

The Ohm is the best solution that I've found, and I've tried all the other ones, that I'm aware of.

MorganH wrote:

As a 200 lb person who has yanked people into the first bolt, you are completely incorrect. There are several bad things that can happen:

1. Belayer drops climber as belay device gets rammed into first piece of pro.
2. Climber impacts belayer, potentially quite severely.
3. Climber hits the ground if the first bolt is high.
4. Climber is so far away from where they fell that it's too much work to dog back up (annoying).

Anchoring the belayer sucks for a couple of reasons:

1. Difficult to give a good belay because they can't move around, give out slack as easy, etc.
2. The force of impact on the tied in belayer can be quite violent & painful as they get jerked to a halt.

In my experience, it's only really an issue on relatively over-hanging climbs with very straight pro. Steel biners (perma-draws) also seem to reduce the friction in the system and lead to much bigger falls. I've had falls where I was less than a body length above the last draw end up in 30' falls where I came dangerously close to beheading my belayer.

The Ohm is the best solution that I've found, and I've tried all the other ones, that I'm aware of.

I can't comment about the Ohm having never used one, but the bolded item quoted above is incorrect. It's possible to arrange the ground anchor and the belay point such that the belayer is still attached but essentially out of the force equation - the ground anchor is attached to the belay loop which is where the belay device is attached. The majority if not all the force is directed through the belay loop. Yes, pretty much eliminating a soft catch is the trade-off.

Nick Norton wrote: So I'm new to lead climbing and I'm wondering if my fiancé will be able to belay me. I know I'm heavier for a rock climber, I'm 190lbs without any gear.  Shes 105lbs. Is it possible for her to belay me when lead climbing? She belays me when top roping in the gym all the time.

How experienced is she? If she's been climbing for awhile, just ask her. Most everyone would outweigh her. If she isn't experienced? You definitely need to talk, together. If this is in a gym, they will likely have rules and resources like sand bags or maybe ground anchors, so talk to the gym. You can also simply have another person belaying. 

A few of the big guys I know take responsibility for that and have an ohm.

Stick clip the first clip or two, even gyms let you do that, depending. Again though, they may not let her belay you, and lead is another set of tests. Outside, just go with some other people when you're starting out. 

Best, Helen

Marc801 C wrote:

I can't comment about the Ohm having never used one, but the bolded item quoted above is incorrect. It's possible to arrange the ground anchor and the belay point such that the belayer is still attached but essentially out of the force equation - the ground anchor is attached to the belay loop which is where the belay device is attached. The majority if not all the force is directed through the belay loop. Yes, pretty much eliminating a soft catch is the trade-off.

The only way that works is if the belayer doesn't move out of line of the force of the rope at all, and the leash has to bepretty tight. Not very practical for giving a good belay on challenging climbs.

Nick Norton wrote: So I'm new to lead climbing and I'm wondering if my fiancé will be able to belay me. I know I'm heavier for a rock climber, I'm 190lbs without any gear.  Shes 105lbs. Is it possible for her to belay me when lead climbing? She belays me when top roping in the gym all the time.

Yes, just get the Ohm, learn how to use it.  For single pitch sport climbing, you can safely ignore all that helpful advise about tying belayer to the ground anchor - even though all experts have seen it done, it is statistically unlikely they have experienced the weight differential similar to yours - for a typical male belayer of reasonable svelte 150lb climber would have to be around 280lb to get close to forces your partner would feel when you take a fall.

Here is Edelrid Ohm promo video, incidentally climber/belayer appear to be quite close to  your weights
Official Edelrid Ohm video

In the gym, where the bolts are completely straight in line, I have yanked my belayer to the second bolt with a relatively small fall. Usually I will feel two distinct phases, as first the rope comes tight and I decellerate rapidly, before accelerating again as my belayer is pulled up. Even if my tie in point is a foot above the draw, I can count on taking a good 15 foot fall. It does help if your belayer tries to give as hard of a catch as possible. My GF will reel in an armload of slack and literally "sit" back into the fall and it helps a ton.

Nick Norton wrote: So I'm new to lead climbing and I'm wondering if my fiancé will be able to belay me. I know I'm heavier for a rock climber, I'm 190lbs without any gear.  Shes 105lbs. Is it possible for her to belay me when lead climbing? She belays me when top roping in the gym all the time.

Other mentioned the Ohm, and I agree that yes, it is possible, and safer, for a lighter belayer to belay someone your weight with an OHM.  

 But a note of caution: even with an OHM, belaying someone who is that much heavier than you is tricky. It may be too much for a new lead belayer to deal with an OHM, on top of just just getting the motions of lead belay down to smooth automatic stage.

Toprope in the gym usually involves a rope wrap around the pipe at the anchors, and feels nowhere near the same as even toprope belay set up without the rope wrap, let alone lead belay. 

My advice: make friends—find a couple of people, one closer to your weight, another closer to hers.  Do the initial lead class with them, and make sure your fiancée has a decent amount of practice with lead belaying people in the 140-150 lb range, before you guys try the OHM. 

Edited to add: the gym also usually has weight bags for anchors. They can help, too. I would ask the person teaching the lead class to go over options that are available to you. 

Thank you everyone! Yeah I plan on doing plenty of classes with her, before trying. I honestly wanted to more so know if it was possible. I appreciate the insight.

Old lady H wrote: Stick clip the first clip or two, even gyms let you do that, depending. Again though, they may not let her belay you, and lead is another set of tests. Outside, just go with some other people when you're starting out.

Best, Helen

How does stick clipping the first bolt help with a heavier climber, Helen? Curious...

Here we go again (sigh)        I'm a little cranky today, and I've posted on this subject too many times, so if you want more details, go to the link.

1) Having USED the Ohm a lot, I can tell you that it requires training for the person on both ends of it to make it merely useable.  And even then, it's often a PITA for the leader: locking up precisely when you're pumped and trying to clip fast.   And that's only one of the problems...   NOTE: between my regular light-weight belayer and me, we have 65 years of exerience.  So it's not like we don't know what we're doing, and we've tried the other ways.

2) Tying your light-weight belayer to any ground anchor via the belay loops SUCKS for the belayer (increased injury risk) AND the leader (hard catches, short-roping, etc.).

3) mountainproject.com/forum/t…

FrankPS wrote:

How does stick clipping the first bolt help with a heavier climber, Helen? Curious...

Simple, Frank. With the first clipped, the belayer is not trying to "spot" someone who is way heavier and taller, which could also be problematic. 

Locally, we have broken columns to start a lot of climbs outside, and bolt spacing that often isn't great. Stick clipping really helps. With a big climber, you can also get some stretch out of the rope, they'll start climbing with less slack, and maybe a bit shorter distance if they do fall.

We've also simply had the light climber do the first bit, lower, and then send the big guy to the top. More rope in the system and farther from the deck is safer, usually.

Inside, I use two big carabiners on an ATC, and pay attention to rope angle if I'm at a gym without friction wraps, for top roping. Closer to the wall (off from the fall line) changes the rope angle up top. Much easier to not be pulled off your feet than if you stand way back. I also use gloves, even in the gym.

The two carabineers merely add friction, which is helpful for management of the weight but they don't change the weight for a fall. Belayers still need to be cognizant of going airborne and what they may hit, Including essentially a refrigerator falling off the wall!

Almost all my partners outweigh me, but, not by the weight OP is talking about. I'd really think carefully, OP, if you want to risk this, and proceed very cautiously, especially if you are both newish to climbing and are headed outside.

EDIT to add, my remarks are addressed to Nick Norton, who resurrected this thread, not OP. 105 vs 190 is a lot, IMO. I've held 230+ to my (then) 135, and even just on top rope, it's a battle. I'd not routinely lead belay that much differential. 

Best, Helen