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Trad belay vs. Sport belay, single pitch

Original Post
Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374

Some of my guys are starting to transition to trad leads. Oddly, there is tons of info out there for the climbers, but I haven't found much info on belaying trad leads. Other than being aware of the first piece, and more diligent in general (hard/soft catches, etc.), anything different from sport? Any books/vids to check out? Just talking single pitch for now, although multi is coming soon, I suspect! I prefer being as topped off on info as i can manage, so thanks in advance for your help!

john strand · · southern colo · Joined May 2008 · Points: 1,640

Other than paying attention..I would say sometimes patience when the leader is fiddling around with placements, some of which can take a while.

You also don't want to stand away from the cliff, no matter the first piece being solid and all that. if the first piece rips there can be big tie problems..in fact a couple of first pieces, opposed might be a good ideas for new leaders.

Jorden Kass · · Belmont, MA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 0

Wearing a helmet as a belayer is even a better idea. Dropped gear happens

Chuck Parks · · Atlanta, GA · Joined Jan 2008 · Points: 2,190

Sometimes the belayer will have a better vantage point for determining how far to extend a piece to prevent rope drag. If you see your leader about to build themselves a massive rope-drag trap, it might be nice to speak up.

Also if the leader is about to climb into dangerous territory (ground fall potential, etc.) and it looks like protection is available then you might want to say something. Folks have different thresholds/opinions about that sort of thing though. Don't want to become a backseat driver.

Since the leader will be spending more time fumbling around with gear, the likelihood that something will get dropped on your head increases. So the belayer wearing a helmet becomes more of a thing.

Larry S · · Easton, PA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 872

Wear a helmet. Pay attention for dropped stuff.

Tie into the other end of the rope or knot it.

Have a communication system with your climber - including a plan for what to do if you can't hear each other.

Stand in a safe place close to the wall, where gear won't zipper and you won't get slammed into something.

In general, you need to be able to be more flexible. In addition to the protection part of it, Trad climbing adds more problem solving and risk management. Sometimes that means changing plans. So be ready: to be belayed up from the top, to have your leader need to both rappel or lower, to possibly have him anchor in partway up the pitch, etc.

john strand · · southern colo · Joined May 2008 · Points: 1,640

GEEZs I knew it was coming..helmets, helmets and more helmets.

A helmet doesn't make you safe, paying attention does

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847
john strand wrote:GEEZs I knew it was coming..helmets, helmets and more helmets. A helmet doesn't make you safe, paying attention does
A helmet keeps the leaders nuts from touching your skull.
S. Neoh · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 35

I am glad no one has mentioned that belayer needs to be anchored down.
Truth of the matter is I do not want to lead belay anyone who is +40# on me nor do I want anyone weighing less than 95# lead belay me.
Helmet or not, anchored down means you are likely further away from the wall and not nimble to react correctly and quickly to a fall or a chunk of rock headed for your noggin.

john strand · · southern colo · Joined May 2008 · Points: 1,640

Except on multi pitch !

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
john strand wrote:GEEZs I knew it was coming..helmets, helmets and more helmets. A helmet doesn't make you safe, paying attention does
A helmet makes you safER, from certain hazards such as rock fall and dropped gear. I don't think anyone is advocating not paying attention. But since I can only speak for myself, I recommend BOTH wearing a helmet AND paying attention.

A lot of good advice in this thread. It's great to see your dedication to learning as much as you can and being a good climbing partner.
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

Not really much that is different.

Gear drops / rocks can get pulled off on sport or trad. More common for rocks to get pulled on routes that are climbed less so probably more common on trad than sport.

Sport or trad I normally let the belayer know whether to give alot of slack or keep it tight encase there is a chance of a ledge fall so not much difference there.

Sport you are unlikely to ever have a piece of gear fail to catch where as with trad you normally are rating your gear as it is being placed and I normally let my belayer know if I think a piece is questionable so they can be ready encase it blows during a fall.

Ultimately just want to be a little more aware of how much slack you have out because the risk on a fall for a trad route vs a sport route is higher.

matt c. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 155

In a lot of cases there is a large differences in skills needed to belay sport and trad climbing. In most sport areas(but not all), the length of a pitch is dictated by the half length of the rope. The consequence is that at any point on the route, the belayer can lower the climber safely belay without issue.
In contrast, the length of pitch in trad climbing is dictated by stances. Very often, the length of a pitch is longer than half the rope. This does not allow climber to be lowered to the belay safely. It follows that you need a few more skills to be able to escape the belay, ascend rope etc.

A lot of people go through their entire climbing career without having to deal with fallen climber past the half way point of a rope, but you really don't wanna be a belayer in that situation without knowing what to do.

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374

Wow! Thank you!

So:

1) My son is both an EMT and SAR, so helmet is non-negotiable. Plus, even dinky little things smart, and a cut on your face tends to bleed all over the place.

2) Very proud to report that just last night I practiced ascending with Purcell's at the gym last night. Second time I've brought them, and both times almost no one had seen this done. So, those are on my harness.

3) Also residing on my harness is a length of static rope and companion prussik to anchor myself, if warranted. Generally, I don't at all, so I can move around, but I know how, and how to tie off and escape a belay, if needed.

4) Great point about routes longer than half rope length. We don't have those right here single pitch, but sure do at places he wants to go.

5) I confess, not being able to see my climber does bug me. I don't think it is more dangerous, but does remove a level of safety. I thought about this a lot, because of a fatality here this summer.

6) So, I'm thinking I need to play with gear more than I have, so I can judge placements and start thinking anchors. Need to learn rope commands. And start getting my head around trad lead and multi!

I'm sure there's plenty I'm forgetting, so throw more my way. And there's always tons more to learn, but that part I really like!

S. Neoh · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 35
john strand wrote:Except on multi pitch !
Of course, John. Agreed. I was limiting myself to the OP's single-pitch subject matter. On MP, unless you are on one of those marvelous ledges at The Gunks or WH, you are pretty much tied down with little mobility. The worst are hanging belays. Oh, how I hate those!
christoph benells · · tahoma · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 306

all this time people thought old lady h was a troll, turns out she's just a mom!

what a mom thing to do.

i think its awesome. keep it up. really all i can say is to make friends within the climbing community and listen to what everyone has to say.

congratulations on have a family activity that bring you guys closer together.

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374
christoph benells wrote:all this time people thought old lady h was a troll, turns out she's just a mom! what a mom thing to do. i think its awesome. keep it up. really all i can say is to make friends within the climbing community and listen to what everyone has to say. congratulations on have a family activity that bring you guys closer together.
Thank you! Just for the record, some of the "elanor" dudes are now among my friends here on mp; also a charter member of the curmudgeon club, who graciously let me join. Curmudgeonette?? : )

And I seriously advise against letting your mom catch wind of that "just a mom" bit.
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
matt c. wrote:In a lot of cases there is a large differences in skills needed to belay sport and trad climbing. In most sport areas(but not all), the length of a pitch is dictated by the half length of the rope. The consequence is that at any point on the route, the belayer can lower the climber safely belay without issue. In contrast, the length of pitch in trad climbing is dictated by stances. Very often, the length of a pitch is longer than half the rope. This does not allow climber to be lowered to the belay safely. It follows that you need a few more skills to be able to escape the belay, ascend rope etc. A lot of people go through their entire climbing career without having to deal with fallen climber past the half way point of a rope, but you really don't wanna be a belayer in that situation without knowing what to do.
Has nothing to really do with trad vs sport but has everything to do with multipitch vs single pitch climbing.
Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374

^^^Viper, Matt, ironically, the fatality I mentioned was partway up a multi pitch, and why I came to these forums in the first place, looking for more information. Fortunately, other climbers were in shouting distance in this case, but I pondered a lot about "what ifs" if I had been the belayer and help wasn't there. It was back country, too, so even more to think about.

Even though I'm not great shakes for climbing skills, yet, I am aiming eventually toward trad, and that will inevitably mean back country too.

Which means I will be that noob who clanks into a gym with a harness full of stuff. : )

Shoot, and add single rope rappel/ascent to my to do list.

GabeO · · Boston, MA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 302
Old lady H wrote:Wow! Thank you! So: 1) My son is both an EMT and SAR, so helmet is non-negotiable. Plus, even dinky little things smart, and a cut on your face tends to bleed all over the place. 2) Very proud to report that just last night I practiced ascending with Purcell's at the gym last night. Second time I've brought them, and both times almost no one had seen this done. So, those are on my harness. 3) Also residing on my harness is a length of static rope and companion prussik to anchor myself, if warranted. Generally, I don't at all, so I can move around, but I know how, and how to tie off and escape a belay, if needed. 4) Great point about routes longer than half rope length. We don't have those right here single pitch, but sure do at places he wants to go. 5) I confess, not being able to see my climber does bug me. I don't think it is more dangerous, but does remove a level of safety. I thought about this a lot, because of a fatality here this summer. 6) So, I'm thinking I need to play with gear more than I have, so I can judge placements and start thinking anchors. Need to learn rope commands. And start getting my head around trad lead and multi! I'm sure there's plenty I'm forgetting, so throw more my way. And there's always tons more to learn, but that part I really like!
You left off your list the most important thing that everyone has been telling you. This should be number one on your list:

1 - Stand directly below the first piece, or as close as you can get to it without being in a terrible stance.

GO
Ancent · · Reno, NV · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 34

Also, short-roping the leader can become a bigger issue and possibly dangerous. If the last piece is tenuous and/or poorly extended, a taught rope can produce an upward and outward force when the leader is moving. A looser belay can minimize this, but it is, as always, entirely situational.

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349

""3) Also residing on my harness is a length of static rope and companion prussik to anchor myself, if warranted. Generally, I don't at all, so I can move around, but I know how, and how to tie off and escape a belay, if needed."

I don't know about this.... what good is a chunk of STATIC cord, or a PRUSSIK?

Just have a arm length runner handy.

Escape the belay????????????? one of the most useless things ever. IMHO.

I have had broken legs, broken arm and a fully locked knee on the lead side way up a big climb before.... never never go un anchored. My god that's whats keeping you alive.

When you can't see the leader, just relax, keep a bit of slack in the system, when the rope gets pulled up thats to clip... then you get ready to take up slack as they climb past the placement....

climbing is EZ as pie, don't over complicate things.

and don't "take" if your leading... this is FREE climbing after all.

have fun

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Beginning Climbers
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