Development of old undocumented front range crag

Doing a line FS FA, and then not allowing someone else to make the line climbable for others to enjoy is about as as egotistical as a climber can get.

Micah Klesick wrote:Doing a line FS FA, and then not allowing someone else to make the line climbable for others to enjoy is about as as egotistical as a climber can get.

Nope. It is easily surpassed by the jerk who retrobolts despite obvious community standards, and furthermore is self righteous about it.

What about just running it out - doing it with a rope and not finding any gear?
Same. They can top rope it.

Not every chimp gets to climb every tree.

A well published letter from Ed Webster on the matter of "climbable for others to enjoy:
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Dear Joshua,

It was nice of you to write; thanks and sorry it's taken me quite a while to respond. We did the FA of Checkerboard Wall with NO bolts. I've only done the route that once [21 years ago], and I never repeated it, but I heard through friends that someone (I don't know who it was) placed a bolt to protect that bit of dicey face off that exposed upper belay, and getting up to the big horizontal overlap on the second-to-last pitch. I was quite dismayed to hear about that bolt, and I take great offense to it, as it ruins the original quality of the route. I led the entire route when we did it; and it took me a lot of concentration to figure out those thin face moves where the bolt is now, and to get up the nerve to do them, right above the belay (and as I recall, a peg behind a flake for pro) to reach the big overlap and plug in a Friend under it. So, I would be very happy if you went up there next spring and removed that bolt. Hack saw it off, carefully hammer the stud into the hole, and epoxy it over with some rock dust to hide the hole if you can.

sincerely, Ed Webster

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Micah Klesick wrote:Doing a line FS FA, and then not allowing someone else to make the line climbable for others to enjoy is about as as egotistical as a climber can get.

Let the koo-koos be. You're not going to win an argument with a crazy person.

Stich, remember a few years ago where we were working?

Hey is this in South Jeffco by chance?

If it is legal to bolt it and isn't tradable, bolt it. My condolences to the tat hangers, but I have a feeling they will forgive you.

I wonder whoever left the rope and bolt even knows if they were the FA. Maybe someone else entirely was.

If it does get bolted I'll likely go climb there, as I'm one of those people adding to the crowding at all the moderate crags listed earlier in this thread.

Alan you can email me at jason@fixedpin.com and we can talk more - I probably have the info you're looking for.

Micah Klesick wrote:Doing a line FS FA, and then not allowing someone else to make the line climbable for others to enjoy is about as as egotistical as a climber can get.

Tony and I disagree about a lot of things, but in this case I'm on his side.

If he puts up a FSFA and documents it, it should be respected as much as any other FA.

It might even have perfectly reasonable gear, a la Blind Faith.

And if it doesn't have gear, there are still people who will enjoy the line.

I wonder where the mtn projers draw the line on researching possible previous FAs?. I usually give it about 5 minutes myself. It ain't in the local guide, no chalk, moss everywhere... Charge the drll, drill it, send it while on camera then come to internet to brag about FAs. Am I missing anything?

Legs Magillicutty wrote:Stich, remember a few years ago where we were working? Hey is this in South Jeffco by chance?

Ayup. We found a button head bolt as I recall, but that was it. We led one crack line with trad gear and then forgot about the mossy slab. Some years later you and others found and developed the Urban Alpine Crag, which was much higher quality.

England wrote: Nothing to see here, keep moving on.

You must know the rock formation of which I speak. I thought of naming it Turd Towerz. What do you think? Pretty catchy. Have you ever toproped the face below those anchors? It looks actually pretty fun.

Rick McL wrote:Alan, your intentions are honorable. Don't wait for someone to cry ownership. Develop the crag and spread the climbing out,especially if the routes are moderate. There's already a substantial overcrowding problem for young and new climbers on existing moderates. you'll be providing a community service. As far as this statement goes: "That tat isn't junk, merely a different style from a different generation." That anchor was created by an inexperienced climber. It doesn't reflect a generation or style.

Yes, it does.

Slinging solid blocks is a form of proection as old as the sport of climbing. Bolt usage hasn't always been as liberal as it is today; your thoughts are inherently flawed assuming that these anchors were for topropes. Very likely, they could have been lower offs for lead climbs. Lichen grows very, very quickly.

As someone who has developed many dozens of routes, evidence of previous climbers gives me good incentive, as it did Alan here, to research the history of the crag/ route. It's all part of the process and the discussions can be quite interesting.

I agree with you whole heartedly in regard to need for moderate, safe leads. Modern climbing is in it's infancy and is steadily increasing in popularity. Every accessible, bolted 5.6 has a line.

I'm a New England climber and probably shouldn't have chimed in here, was sitting at the laundromat..

Greg D wrote:Mark, You have shown your limited experience and scope of climbing time and time again in the short time span as an active climber or at least a MoPro member. You have insisted lowering is safer than rappelling almost no matter what the circumstances. Most experienced climbers no this is not true. You even commented on the recent thread where the person being lowered got injured while not mentioning your flawed stance. You have mentioned that you climb 5 hard on bolts ( probably shouting take often) yet tremble on 5 easy gear. Commenting on a national or international forum and suggesting "to just completely and utterly disregard any long time traditions and ethics" really takes the cake. I expect more from someone your age and decency. You know next to nothing about this crag. The op knows very little about this crag and we know even less.

Greg, I usually find your posts worth considering, even when I disagree. But this seems to just be an ad hominem attack. Doesn't really support your position, whatever that might be. And misrepresents several of mine, for what that's worth.

Personally, I think if a crag has been documented, or there's evidence of fairly recent activity, then it makes sense to enquire before developing.

But not every old fixed pin or TR anchor warrants an in-depth site review and expecting this from developers is unreasonable, again IMHO.

In this case, I think Alan would have been well within accepted boundaries to clean up the old tat, keep his mouth shut about it and put up a nice crag. Let what happens in Jeffco stay in Jeffco.

Highlander wrote:Sounds like no one has climbed there for a very long time. Do what you want with it, develop it, clean it, bolt it and enjoy it. Share it with your friends, and maybe not publish it publicly anywhere. Not every little crag needs to be posted on MP or put in a guidebook.

Wouldn't publishing the crag avoid this whole debate in the first place? If people knew who did the FA, no one can argue with that. There would be no concern of stepping on anyone's toes. I dislike "secret crags" for that reason. How can people respect the past if history is never documented? They don't even have a chance. First ascents are such a major part of climbing, even the most insignificant.

I assure you that this crag is only going to appeal to locals who can get there minutes from their front doors. There is better rock out there still for the rest of you, and I would say it is in your canyons that already have many crags and would seem to be tapped out. You just need to hike a little further, go a little out of the way, and you can find new crags of your own.

You'd be amazed how many little canyons are right next to the ones you already climb in. Most of the low lying fruit has been found, sure, but there's still rock in Clear Creek, Boulder Canyon, and just about anyplace you can think of.

Think about the Tiers of Zion. Who knew that was worth developing? It's super close, has some quality lines, and is a refreshing addition to any after work outing in hot weather. If you do a little bushwhacking, you might find more.

No need to post it now. Its not s secret crag. It won't be when its complete. I thought I got rid of that line years ago up there. I'll go take care of it. That is what I'd hang off of to clean and jumar back up. We would have continued to work on it but Stich moved and other stuff became more of a priority. Cleaning will be a bitch. If you need help, I live just down the road and would be happy to help.

Good eye Alan!

You people will argue over anything.

I never said the words "secret crag", just that not every crag needs to be in a guide book or on MP. How do think climbers got by without the internet and fancy guidebooks before. I could care less about this particular crag BTW.
Locally we have crags that are not on MP or any guidebooks, knowledge and topos are shared freely with the local climbing community and non locals, it has worked well so far.

tbol wrote: Wouldn't publishing the crag avoid this whole debate in the first place? If people knew who did the FA, no one can argue with that. There would be no concern of stepping on anyone's toes. I dislike "secret crags" for that reason. How can people respect the past if history is never documented? They don't even have a chance. First ascents are such a major part of climbing, even the most insignificant.

Thank you Alan for going about this the right way.

I was appalled after reading the thread about the NCCC bolting Duncans Ridge without any regard for the history of the area. All the n00bs posting up in favor of the sport routes on that thread need a freaking mentor or at least read a book. Sorry for the rant but I am constantly surprised by how ignorant people can be who should know better
Good luck in your endeavors.
Brad

Some n00bs that post in favor of bolts have been climbing for 25 years. . . In 25 years I've learned that I prefer to climb bolted routes than doing top ropes or head points.

Nothing wrong w sport. What's wrong was the blatant disrespect towards ethics. It doesn't take 25 years of climbing to know how development of areas is supposed to go down.