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Development of old undocumented front range crag

ErikaNW · · Golden, CO · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 410
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:Think about it for a minute. This is the front range. Every pebble has been looked over and contains at least two alternate finishes. If this place has been abandoned, there is likely a reason. People don't forget about good areas. It's lacking in one or more of these qualities. -Accessibility -Rock quality -Route quality -Freedom to actually climb there


This.

There might be a place for more QUALITY moderates, but honestly, there have been some pretty awful routes put up in that grade range recently. Just because you can bolt something, doesn't mean you should....

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:John Long will probably call you a vandal. Panties will twist, oh yes, they will twist.
Oh - and also this!

Good on you for asking around about the history though.
Parker Wrozek · · Denver, CO · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 86

I do think if someone wants to spend their time and money on bolting something that is not great I don't see it as an issue. Maybe it is not the best use of resources for the community but we shouldn't stop someone as long as it will be a safe crag. If it sucks people will not go...but I am doubtful, if bolted they will come (for example the 2 leftmost 5.8's at highwire are garbage imo and climbed all the time).

Alan has a history of bolting in the canyon and has put up bad routes, good routes, and even a couple really good routes. Everything cannot be a 4 star route, if they come out at 2 stars then that will be pretty good and they will be climbed all the time. Look at the 4 5.8's on the left of Canal Zone, all 2.1 stars which means they are all alright but nothing special. Sometimes that is ok.

Alan Prehmus · · littleton, co · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 1,575

Thanks for all the comments. There is lots of food for thought.
Concern for route quality seemed to be a recurring theme.
I think that the rock itself is really quite good. The issue is its north facing, damp & mossy.
In its current condition, its sure not much like a gym.
Traffic and wire brushes might go a long way though.

My current plan is to let this thread simmer for a while to see if someone claims the area.
I'll also contact the open space folks and some of the active guide book authors.

jason.cre · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 10
evan h wrote:Here's my $0.02. Let's think about the worthiness of these potential development ideas. I don't find that we're lacking in moderates on the front range, so I'm wondering if developing a crag like this will really hold any value. Remember, there are already more sketchy bolts than funding for replacement as is, and this will just be another crag needing upgrades on down the road (sooner or later depending on your hardware choice).
I disagree, the moderate front range crags are massively overcrowded and get worse every year. Beginners will frequent crags with moderate routes even if they are shitty crags and the more we can get it spread out the better for everyone involved.
Paul Hassett · · Aurora CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 161

OK - I'll be the one to ask: where is it?

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883
Mark E Dixon wrote:I think you should delete this thread before it's too late, then do a good job bolting it.
This is the best advice ever!!!

Basically, totally ignore the fact there might be some history here, possible FA's, just do what ever you want, just don't tell anybody. Come on Mark! Really?

OP, good on you for doing some research and having some respect for those that have been there before even if it appears not much has been done. It may be hard to decide what has been done there. But, clearly others have been there before you. I applaud you for taking some time to investigate.
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Greg D wrote: This is the best advice ever!!! Basically, totally ignore the fact there might be some history here, possible FA's, just do what ever you want, just don't tell anybody. Come on Mark! Really? OP, good on you for doing some research and having some respect for those that have been there before even if it appears not much has been done. It may be hard to decide what has been done there. But, clearly others have been there before you. I applaud you for taking some time to investigate.
What exactly is my heinous offense?

Disrespecting the storied achievements of the brave top roping pioneers?

This crag isn't a museum, and even museums change their exhibits once in a while.

Might be violating the Antiquities Act though...
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

Mark,

You have shown your limited experience and scope of climbing time and time again in the short time span as an active climber or at least a MoPro member. You have insisted lowering is safer than rappelling almost no matter what the circumstances. Most experienced climbers no this is not true. You even commented on the recent thread where the person being lowered got injured while not mentioning your flawed stance. You have mentioned that you climb 5 hard on bolts ( probably shouting take often) yet tremble on 5 easy gear.

Commenting on a national or international forum and suggesting "to just completely and utterly disregard any long time traditions and ethics" really takes the cake. I expect more from someone your age and decency. You know next to nothing about this crag. The op knows very little about this crag and we know even less.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Greg D wrote:Mark, You have shown your limited experience and scope of climbing time and time again in the short time span as an active climber or at least a MoPro member. You have insisted lowering is safer than rappelling almost no matter what the circumstances. Most experienced climbers no this is not true. You even commented on the recent thread where the person being lowered got injured while not mentioning your flawed stance. You have mentioned that you climb 5 hard on bolts ( probably shouting take often) yet tremble on 5 easy gear. Commenting on a national or international forum and suggesting "to just completely and utterly disregard any long time traditions and ethics" really takes the cake. I expect more from someone your age and decency. You know next to nothing about this crag. The op knows very little about this crag and we know even less.
DANGER!!!!

Abandoned toproping enclaves threatened world wide.

Call the Crag Police!
Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860
Mark E Dixon wrote: Disrespecting the storied achievements of the brave top roping pioneers?
LMAO!!! More GOLD!
Paul Hassett · · Aurora CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 161

I would call them is only I knew where the crag was.

Endangering top roping crags has become a top priority for the crag police in recent years. Justice has been swift and merciless for transgressors, and many have found themselves, brush in hand, endlessly scrubbing filthy cracks for weeks on end with a child's toothbrush. While analogies fall short, picture if you will the legendary labor camps found in the coldest, darkest regions of Siberia. No rest, poor rations, unbearable conditions.

As if the punishment was not diabolical enough, you are not allowed to rappel down to clean said cracks, but must be lowered by a court-appointed belayer. These individuals have the darkest of hearts and minds, and revel in the art they employ. Their prescribed pace is designed to be tediously slow, but just quick enough that you must take multiple passes to finish your onerous task. As this is the very definition of punishment, there will be no knot in the end of your rope, should your belayer absentmindedly drop you while chain-smoking.

Needless to say, take caution before approaching these unknown crags, as the penalties are not to be trifled with. Most are never the same after their sentences, and few are ever able to climb again.

Rick McL · · Arvada CO · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 50

Alan,
your intentions are honorable. Don't wait for someone to cry ownership. Develop the crag and spread the climbing out,especially if the routes are moderate. There's already a substantial overcrowding problem for young and new climbers on existing moderates. you'll be providing a community service.

As far as this statement goes: "That tat isn't junk, merely a different style from a different generation." That anchor was created by an inexperienced climber. It doesn't reflect a generation or style.

Highlander · · Ouray, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 256

Sounds like no one has climbed there for a very long time. Do what you want with it, develop it, clean it, bolt it and enjoy it. Share it with your friends, and maybe not publish it publicly anywhere. Not every little crag needs to be posted on MP or put in a guidebook.

Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860

I've only ever heard of a few lines that were established as a free solo. Snakes Head, Last of the Dead Guys, and Goon Squad at Quartz Mountain are the ones I know of. Dead guys, Raleigh soloed it first and it remained unrepeated for years, till someone got Duane's permission to add bolts in 2002. Okie ethics at Quartz are sort of unique. The other two are still for all purposes, solos.

Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Craig Childre wrote:I've only ever heard of a few lines that were established as a free solo's. Snakes Head, Last of the Dead Guys, and Goon Squad at Quartz Mountain are the ones I know of.
Or Blind Faith, in Eldo? Or Death and Disfiguration? Or... well, literally 100's of Flatirons routes, and not just the East Faces, we're talking 5.10's in some cases.
There are lots of climbs established OSFS... No offense intended, as I am sure that is genuine ignorance, but not knowing the history is not the same as it not being so.

Regardless, I agree that the matter is likely not pertinent here, there were obviously rap lines or TR anchors. The 'could have been free-soloed' argument is pretty lame and has been used on me before. I just happen to document my FSFA's when they can be described so as to avoid that later.

Another possibility is that the inspection/toproping/inspection/work was done by someone who is no longer a developer in the community. IE: DM has moved, AN has passed, XX is very ill, etc... Could have been that sort of situation.
Mike Morin · · Glen, NH · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 1,355

In my random explorations around CCC I feel as though I've seen this spot before, but it's vague in my memory. I've stumbled upon lichen covered fixed lines in the canyon before, not sure it was the one pictured, but the image is tickling some synapses. Just curious, what's the approach like, is the staging area going to get blown out quickly if it becomes a circus?

Justin Brunson · · Tacoma WA · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 2,266
Parker Wrozek wrote: Although I get what you are saying apparently you don't go to the moderate crags in the summer. 5.9 and below sport is very lacking based on the amount of people who climb that level and you see at the crags with those grades (Canal Zone, Highwire, East Colfax being the most obivous).
Agreed.
Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860

@Tony.... Point taken... clearly, my Front Range knowledge is limited... What I would point out, this isn't a crag with a heavily documented history and looks mostly unused. Eldo and Quartz are. Bolting up a route that was soloed in a high traffic area, vs one that's been abandoned for years just isn't the same by my measure. As I'd imagine the locals at Quartz might rise to violence if anyone showed up and bolted their Snakes Head. I'm not apart of the Front Range community, who will ultimately stand in judgement. Quartz has a very small community and area by comparison, so this sort of dispute is far easier to process.

Personally, I'm all for development. As I see it, adding bolts to a route doesn't make un-solo-able... or make it un-TR-able ;) ... only place they shouldn't go, is next to a crack... but that's me...

Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Mike Morin wrote:Just curious, what's the approach like, is the staging area going to get blown out quickly if it becomes a circus?
Excellent questions, and of as much importance as any of the others if you are talking about another "canal zone" when it comes to grade/route count.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Craig Childre wrote:@Tony.... Point taken... clearly, my Front Range knowledge is limited... What I would point out, this isn't a crag with a heavily documented history and looks mostly unused. Eldo and Quartz are. Bolting up a route that was soloed in a high traffic area, vs one that's been abandoned for years just isn't the same by my measure.
No prob man, we're in agreement on principle. I wasn't trying to disagree on that - just to raise awareness of something you seemed to be missing historically.
Very few people know how routes like "Blind Faith" or "Death and Disfiguration" got named. In recent years there is more of that, IE "Stay Focused" next to "In Focus" I called it that due to it being an OSFS FA. Huecool was similar. Pic from the FA. No rope there.

I was just saying that locally there is a long and rich history of OS FS FA's.
I have done many dozens that way myself, and I'm no Jim Erikson...

But I'd be pissed if someone bolted that up.

Tony B. at mid-route just above the big huecos (but still in steep territory) on the free solo F.A. Photo by Stuart Paul, 3/15.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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