AMGA vs PCIA vs PCGI climbing guide certifications

Three (US) climbing guides orgs with similar missions: AMGA, PCIA, PCGI. Has anyone been through courses or tests in more then one and can compare and contrast their value? I've read AMGA is quite pricey and their classes are almost mandatory for passing their exams regardless of experience. Which or the orgs has the most bang for the buck? Are all recognized equally by land managers like the NPS, BLM, NFS and climbing liability insurers? Are they all recognized by countries other then the US? I haven't found current data online.

You will find this useful: supertopo.com/climbers-foru…

The AMGA is the most recognized accreditation service for guides in the US. It is not formally recognized in other countries unless you complete all courses, in which case you would receive international accreditation in member states through an organization called the IFMGA. PCIA and PCGI are starting to become much more recognized throughout the US, however, they are still significantly less common. It is my understand that the three all have fairly comparable single pitch/top-roping style certifications. The PCGI offers a greater range of higher level course, and the AMGA covers the greatest range of skills. I cannot speak personally to the quality of courses in either.

I've participated in courses and exams from both the AMGA and PCIA and they're both valuable in the guiding skills you learn and practice. A key difference between the AMGA and the PCIA is that the PCIA focuses exclusively on guiding within the single pitch environment whereas the AMGA offers courses for three different disciplines at varying levels. (The PCIA does also offer courses geared more towards professional rope access workers)

The PCIA Single Pitch Instructor course is 5 days long including the final exam day, which I felt to be far more rigorous than the AMGA SPI Exam. The PCIA also requires examinees to lead at least 5.6, which is supposedly the standard for the AMGA SPI exam, but I have heard that many SPI providers do not require examinees to lead (this is just hearsay). The PCIA SPI course covers more material and allows for candidates to practice techniques more with the assistance of instructors. The PCIA was also started by Jon Tierney, one of the early creators of the AMGA Top Rope Site Manager, who has arguably the most extensive experience guiding within the single pitch environment, both top and bottom managed climbing. The AMGA SPI course is fantastic as well, but I felt it to be a little bit less challenging and a little bit too jam packed over the 3 days.

The AMGA certainly has more 'cred' compared to the PCIA - I can't speak to the PCGI. However, I couldn't imagine a potential employer or client finding both AMGA and PCIA certification to NOT be a positive.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm not familiar with the PCIA. I'm very familiar with the AMGA, and they're pretty much the Gold Standard given their firm establishment at major climbing areas as well international recognition. The PCGI seems to have a bad rep around here. Most pro guides I've met (AMGA Rock Instructor/Guides) look down on their program as sub-standard. And the places (routes/areas) I've seen them guide are rather pedestrian. I think if I were hiring a guide, I'd want a little something more than a 20-foot top rope with 2 variations set up on a walk-up cliff...something most newbies could easily accomplish. But I guess there's a niche for that.

I've got certifications from both programs. I had someone pay for me to go to a PCIA instructor course many years ago. It was a fine course but it's a limited organization as is the PCGI. I've completed a lot of AMGA instruction and certification. It's more extensive, and more thorough. It's also the only organization recognized in other countries.

The AMGA is the only one that's really going to grow the profession in my opinion. Nobody is going to make much of a living just taking people single pitch climbing. The organization connects people in many different ways and has put a lot of effort into creating a guiding culture focused on professionalism and education.

This country has a lot of varying rules. I operate a guide service in CO. The only agency that asks about certs is Eldo and I believe they require AMGA certs. Everyone else wants to make sure you're CPR and FA certified (if I were hiring a guide I think I'd want to know they can climb, rather than fix me after they screw up). I believe J-Tree requires guide certifications, but will accept them from pretty much any organization. I believe Rainier requires Alpine certification through the AMGA for their single use lottery or whatever they call it. A lot of variation.

As far as bang for your buck goes. What do you want to do? The single pitch discipline is pretty comparable price wise for all those organizations. If you're going to guide a little bit in the single pitch environment I wouldn't even bother if it were me. There are lots of low end guide services paying terrible wages to run a carnival ride version of climbing. If you wanted to step it up the AMGA has more name recognition (I don't generally even look at a resume unless I see at least an SPI certification). If you're wanting to make a career of guiding then go the AMGA route.

It's not really related to the certifications but I've gone from less than a hundred guided work days a year pre-certification (any certification) to getting in that 200 a year range. I'm having a baby soon so that'll go down but the quality of guest is also higher and trips more satisfying. I'm a little bit different in running my own show though. Lots of facets to the conversation but if you want to be a guide and not just dabble in it then go the AMGA route.

Hopefully this will help shed some light on the differences:

AMGA Gains UIAA recognition.

Any training is better than none at all but I believe it is becoming pretty obvious to the consumer of what certifications to be looking for.

Watch this video Mountain Craft: youtube.com/watch?v=ipq51dG…

Hey gang. Like Trevor I have participated in both the AMGA and PCIA training. And I would say both are fantastic but are very different. The AMGA is the only international certifying body for Mountain Guides in the US. This standard is consistent with Canada, Europe and most other nations in the world. The AMGA process is long and difficult process but is extremely rewarding. When entering the AMGA programs you should already have a good base of knowledge about climbing and be prepared to have your world rocked. You will learn to be a Professional not simply a climber.

The PCIA is definitely more of an introduction into the AMGA programs. A main goal of the PCIA is to focus on teaching. Therefore I think the PCIA would be great for people who want to dabble in guiding and are thinking of working for outdoor ed or wilderness therapy programs. Also the PCIA is run by an IFMGA guide who has gone through the AMGA system, which I think gives them a good perspective on the whole industry.

I have never taken a course with the PCGI but they seem to have reputation amongst the industry. Like Karsten said I think any education is better than none. Deciding which organization is best for you will be based on your commitment, cash flow and location. Education is power and climbing is dangerous! Good luck.

This is a subject that has kept me up late at night on many an occasions and probably taken years off my life. I spent over a decade trying to gain acceptance for, build recognition of and develop content for the AMGA climbing instructor (now SPI) program. For the past few years I have been trying to do the same for the PCIA. I would be happy to comment on MP on how this all evolved and clarify a lot of misconceptions about things but it's not really worth my time unless people have an open mind and are truly interested in bettering the industry not just getting an easy credential. Let me know.

I'd love to hear your side of it.

Yes, Jon. Please elaborate. I don't think you sharing is a waste of time.

I too would love to hear from you, Jon. Thank you for your contributions to the climbing community and also to this thread.

I think many of us would love to hear your comments Jon...

Jon, I took an AIARE course from you back in 2008 in Smuggler's Notch. It's the Internet so people can be idiots but I think the benefits of your opinion outweigh any negatives of wading thru BS.

I took my first WFR course from you, Jon, in 2003. The instruction you provided was of such a high quality that the majority of it has never been lost on me, even though my certification expired several years ago.

I'm sure that you are approaching this project with the fervor and professionalism that you have others in the past. If I still desired to be a guide, your program would be at the top of my list, simply because of your instruction and approach.

I hope that this serves as an endorsement that others may consider.

,

As you look through the available sites and navigate their pages, the first thing that jumps out is the AMGA's attention to detail. This attention to detail is reflected in its programming. As the only internationally recognized credential, its easy to see that the professional representatives of this organization have taken the time and steps to secure the acceptance and titles associated with the AMGA. An organization that demonstrates its proficiency under the scrutiny of peers and gains acceptance should be fully supported by professionals of the sport to achieve licensing and gain the acknowledgements and pay that our hard working guides deserve. It can't be about chasing tee shirts and titles, we have to secure the future of this sport for the generations to come. Building international support only strengthens our local influence preserving climbing areas for the next generation of guides to hone their craft.

Climb hard and stay safe.

Ok here goes. So where do I start this dialogue? There is more information than I can offer in a single setting so bear with me. First some history and please don’t hold me to exact dates and numbers. If you are the type that wants them you can come visit and pour over the hundreds of emails, files and records I have on file.

Also please note that I have been, and continue to be, an AMGA member since 1988 and owner of an AMGA accredited school since 1994. I was an AMGA BOD when we used to pass around a collection hat just to keep the organization afloat. Like others of that era, I have spent thousands of personal dollars to support the AMGA outside of training and certification for just myself. Despite my PCIA involvement and my major concerns around AMGA politics, education, and the terrain guidelines I continue to support the AMGA and believe there are many great training programs, SPI excepted at least as it's taught by many instructors. This year, as in many years in the past, I underwrote the cost of a RGC for six employees along with a full SPI course. In both cases this year I was required to hire other AMGA personnel to provide these trainings – ironic to say the least which was very costly given how many years I taught for the AMGA and my leadership of the AMGA pre SPI progra. I did this because I believe strongly in the terrain guidelines. These should have gone into effect the first time around back in 2003-06. When Danny U asked me if it was okay to use my 2003 material for the 2013 terrain proposals to go into effect in 2017 of course I said yes. Now we learn that 2017 has been bumped to 2022 and perhaps even further out. Why? Many schools spent tens of thousands of dollars to prepare their guides for something that never happened. Granted there is value just in the education but it's hard to swallow when other schools don't make the investment in education but rather in websites, marketing, trips, etc. Also FYI – the PCIA accreditation program requires terrain standards be followed and honors AMGA certifications in the various disciplines. Can you guess why there are only a few PCIA accredited programs?

I often hear from AMGA leaders that the other organizations lack competence and professionalism. I can only speak for the PCIA. Let’s take that one straight on. First, I am certainly not the PCIA by myself as has been suggested. The organization has a Board of Directors, an Exec Dir, Education Director (volunteer), Outdoor and indoor program chairs (volunteers). The PCIA instructor pool has several lead outdoor providers, and several up and coming assistants and about over 25 CWI providers. The PCIA was initiated by three people – Todd Vogel (AMGA Rock and Alpine Guide, former AMGA BOD multiple terms and accreditation committee member and reviewer, former AMGA TRSM Committee Member), Alan Jolley (AMGA Rock Guide, former long-time AMGA instructor / examiner, former AMGA BOD multiple terms and technical committee member, rock discipline coordinator and former AMGA TRSM Committee Member) and myself (IFMGA/AMGA Mountain Guide – Rock 93, Alpine 97, Ski 06, former AMGA BOD multiple terms, former AMGA Technical Committee member, former Chair of AMGA Accreditation, former AMGA accreditation reviewer, former AMGA instructor / examiner, TRSM Discipline Coordinator 1997 – 2004, former TRSM Committee Member 1997 – 2007). We initiated it for a few basic reasons:

1. There was dissatisfaction in the educational climbing community with respect to the AMGA feeling that it was, among other things, very exclusive.
2. Many in the AMGA including the ED did not feel this program belonged in the AMGA – IFMGA guides suggested it confused the certification regime and the ED even claimed it cost the AMGA money (not sure how 3 – 400 people a year at 130.00 ea costs the organization money but I digress). Even the new TRSM Discipline Coordinator suggested on more than one occasion that the program might be better served via a separate body such as some European countries do.
3. As the primary trainer of providers, I recognized a developing problem in QA. This was clearly illustrated when over 40% of the pool providing the course received failing or marginal scores on the very exam they were teaching people to pass. This was done during a training session at an annual meeting. When this was brought to the attention of the BOD and TC it was glanced over and forgotten like it didn’t matter. The solution was not remediation but rather a lowering of the standard and an acceptance of a certain degree of mediocrity.
4. The TRSM committee actually voted down the replacement of the TRSM with the SPI two years in a row. The primary reasons were #3 above and the committee wanted the SPI to be in addition to the TRSM not in lieu of so that the many top rope instructors in universities and organizations could continue to have access to training even if they did not actively lead climb. How it came to be is called politics.
5. Finally, after trying unsuccessfully to get the AMGA to fund a study, I did it myself and polled about 1200 people including outdoor program leaders, certified guides, outdoor leaders, AORE members, etc. I received almost 400 responses to the rather lengthy survey. Those results supported either changing the AMGA program to be more inclusive or starting a new program with a mission on entry level climbing instructors. The design of the PCIA curriculum and courses was based largely on that survey and the experience that Todd, Alan and myself brought to the table (as we were the top three providers of the TRSM program at that time)

In launching the PCIA, we felt that we were using a model much like the AMGA ski program uses. Candidates in the AMGA ski program are expected to be competent at PSIA (Prof Ski Instructor Assoc) top level. We felt that the AMGA would feel relief by not having to deal with the program and that certifications would be cleaner to the public as AMGA certs would be for guides and PCIA certs would be more for instructors. In essence, the PCIA curriculum would form the foundation from which people could go onto the Rock Guide program.

Well it didn’t quite work out that way. Instead the AMGA execs viewed the PCIA as competition (I guess it really was making money) and have tried continuously to squash the PCIA. Most people don’t know this, but I did not step down from the AMGA Technical Committee or from instructing and examining in the AMGA program. Quite the contrary, I was told to step down by the exec director through the TD. In many other professions it is fairly common for people to be encouraged and involved in multiple organizations (especially non-profits) even if there is some conflicting interest. To this day I would enjoy instructing and believe I could still add a lot to the AMGA instructional team and course candidate without providing a bias. Certainly I talk a lot about the AMGA programs (in a good way) on PCIA courses.

Ok so on to others that teach PCIA courses: Actually there are quite a few very capable people teaching in the PCIA program. Many are graduates of AMGA Rock courses, some are certified by the AMGA. There is second IFMGA guide who also teaches for the AMGA. While at times I have felt differently, I realize that there are many fine folks who can teach others to teach top roping and single climbing who are not certified guides nor do they need to be. Consider as an example a person who is a graduate of early AMGA Rock and Advanced Rock courses (could have easily passed exams), the Alpine Guides Course, was instrumental in the development of the AMGA TRSM and on the TRSM committee for period of time. This person is a former university outdoor leader, long time OB leader and former climbing director for HIOBS. He has been the head of credentialing and standards for a major outdoor training organization for several years and written two books on technical skills. He stills climbs 5.10 and visits the alpine in his mid 50s. I think he can teach these skills better than 95% of the people who are doing it.

The PCIA keeps a pretty tight rein on providers to try and maintain quality. We are concerned more about quality rather than quantity. In fact, a number of people who have wanted to become PCIA providers have subsequently turned to the AMGA when they were told they weren’t quite ready to be out there teaching instructors on their own.

The weaknesses of the PCIA are:
We are where the AMGA was 30 years ago. We are seven years old, we still pass around the hat and the program continues to grow. We now have a part time Executive Director. Our website is good and getting better. We are not as sexy or as well known as the AMGA. Our clientele’s clients are mostly college students and kids – not wealthy folks who we can solicit big donations from. The AMGA is sexy. We have lost good providers who became Rock Instructors and Rock Guides and were sucked into the sexiness and glamour of the AMGA. Yes, as a new organization we may not survive. We understand, It’s difficult to bet on the outliers but outliers are the catalysts of change. If the PCIA did not exist, many of the positive changes that occurred in 2007 – 2011 in the AMGA SPI program would likely have not happened. Competition forced the AMGA to place more value on the SPIs.

The strengths of the PCIA are: We serve a broader range of entry level climbing instructors and better address the needs of summer camps, and non-profit organizations with we are very concerned about the quality and evolution of our program rather than how we look. We are open to new ideas and program suggestions that meet niche needs. We are open to instructors. The PCIA invites AMGA guides to join it’s instructor pool, we reciprocate to the AMGA SPI even though the AMGA doesn’t do it back (FYI AORE technically requires this but the AMGA seems to be able to circumnavigate this detail).

As for the UIAA, our single pitch program easily qualifies for this standard. It requires a significant financial contribution to the UIAA to obtain. When our bank account allows we will likely pursue it. Furthermore, for a recent period of time, one of the American representatives was the president of the AMGA so you can guess how far along the process we might have made it. The PCIA offers some programs in Canada and we have done international courses as well.

As for access, the PCIA, PCGI and AMGA have pretty much the same access with the exception of visiting guides program but that really has nothing to do with the organization – it’s more just owners offering the opportunity to work under their permits as their employees. This, while appreciated, is not access. Not much has yet been done to gain access for single pitch terrain by the AMGA or the PCIA for that matter.

I don’t believe the current training that either organization is doing is adequate if certifications are being given. There are still a lot of uncovered skill sets, expectations that employers and clients have that currently certified people can’t address and a ton of people who do a reasonable job teaching climbing (or can) but for a variety of reasons don’t lead climb. Further if there is a leading standard it should be a level that actually matters and is consistent with what they might do in the field.

I hope this helps some you understand why the PCIA came into existence. It is still my hope that the AMGA and the PCIA can work together to better climbing instruction in the US. I have tried to initiate such a discussion with the AMGA BOD and office but have gotten no response. There is a great need for this.

My next commentary will be on PCIA programs and what the PCIA offers as well as programs we considered and dropped and that are in development. I will also try to address where I think the standard should be and where I think it is for the PCIA and the AMGA.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Jon. You the man! For me, my exposure to this program all started circa 2000/ 2001 at the Horsetooth hang with you and Adam for the TRSM provider training. I don't remember the exact year, but does that sound about right?

After that, I gave tons of my time and energy to continue supporting, teaching, and staying actively involved with the program. I didn't need this program for job security because it wasn't all I did for work, nor all I wanted to do for work unlike many of the folks that made it their bread and butter. A few courses a year, ok, but full time in this curriculum alone would make me never want to guide again.

By the mid 2000's you could see many less experienced guides building themselves job security across the country with this program and exploiting the hell out of it, certifying anyone that wanted a cert. This in a way started one of the biggest confusions amongst the public and even land managers as to what type of AMGA cert an individual might have. It even fooled management in Eldorado Canyon. In order to work in Eldo one needed "AMGA" certification to obtain the permits. Don't hate the player hate the game for this one, but a very good friend and now IFMGA guide pulled the Eldo Permit on a TRSM certification, bought insurance, and opened up his first guide service. Eldorado Canyon has since been educated as to the limitations and terrain guidelines of a TRSM, ( now a SPI cert ) and currently requires a Rock Instructor Certification to obtain it's permits.

My friend with the TRSM cert at the time, did this out of frustration mostly because none of the bigger companies would hire him. Ironically he now works for one of those companies as an IFMGA senior guide and is killing it.

Many concessions and schools started advertising it hard, and creating in house trainings for everyone on their rosters to provide this course in excess and quite regularly. Those schools also had in house trainers that made it easy for their whole schools to become providers and much harder for other guides in other parts of the country to attend localized trainings that catered to the best interests of a select few who were living close to or working for the providers at the time. It gave the uppers that controlled it Job security in the sense of only allowing themselves and a select few to offer instructor trainings.

It was and still is the number one money maker for individuals who live off of it. It's high ratio low risk guiding. The AMGA started to and still probably sees insane revenue from it as well. Once registered for a course a candidate immediately starts paying membership dues. Then the member will pay membership dues every year to keep the cert active and at the time of the course, the instructors of the courses pay a hefty chunk of the tuition per person to the AMGA. Probably the number one reason the program experienced that type of growth so fast was the dollar signs and the growing membership. If the candidate wants to maintain their cert but not continue with more training and a higher lever cert they will continue to need to find a provider to recert and all the pockets in that chain get greased again.

Jon Tierney, I learned a bunch from you. Look forward to reading your next installment. I had a ton of passion for this program, but it mutated it's pool like wildfire, in leu of growing membership, making money, and giving the AMGA some recurring membership fees. Much the way AIARE mutated it's provider pool, with minimum prerequisites and experience, you could pay for the training, the curriculum and the membership to be eligible to teach and sell the course. Just like the QC of the TRSM at the time, and now even worse with the SPI, the QC of the provider pool at AIARE slipped dramatically as the program expanded faster then the regulating committee could keep up with it. Folks that had only started back country activities a year or so earlier were plowing through level I and II programs back to back, and then firing straight into their provider courses and Voila, Level I providers months after taking their level one for their first time to begin with. That kind of happened to the SPI program as well.

Sadly many of the Current SPI providers and supporters of the program now, Once criticized, spoke out against, and discredited the TRSM back in the day. It is now like a small money making franchise for those folks so no one seems to be complaining anymore.

Anyway, I am going to keep my mouth shut on this topic beyond this, but oh boy, would I love to tell you all how I really feel.

I have to refrain from posting in our FB group where I shared this link, but boy my lip is starting to hurt from biting it so hard.

Years ago, I bought a few domains and never really got around to exploiting them.

If you want to really market the hell out of these programs and certify the world, and you jumped through the effortless motions, payed your dues to teach spi courses, continue to stay current, recert, and spend wads of cash to stay a current provider then let me know if your interested in a few domains I have.

Sell the hell out of it and certify the world. Most everybody gets a cert just for showing up.

www.singlepitchinstructor.com
www.amgasinglepitchinstructor.com

Those are good answers. Like much jargon I don't know what many of those acronyms mean. Can any of the exams be passed without taking the courses or do the courses teach what the exam specifically teaches?

The PCIA does have an option for challenging an the Top Rope Climbing Instructor and Single Pitch Climbing Instructor exams. I do not believe the AMGA allows challenges.

PCIA guidelines: Experienced providers who can provide evidence of formalized instruction in climbing management and significant field experience are allowed one attempt to challenge the exam. The requirements for exam challenges are: Previous completion of the AMGA Single Pitch Course or lapsed AMGA SPI, or greater than 3 years experience of working at least 40 days per year of managing rock or ice climbing sites. These sites should include a diversity of areas that include both natural and artificial anchors, or An individual may petition the PCIA to be allowed to challenge the exam based on a resume showing significant experience and evidence of formalized instruction. (ie. An individual with several years of personal climbing background who instructs rock climbing 10 – 20 days per year and has taken at least seven days of formalized technical courses through highly recognized providers).

Hi all I found a link of this thread while glancing at the AMGA professional Member Forum on FB...a closed group that has been informative about some issues in the guiding industry. First off "Other" I am stoked that you are looking to further educate yourself and please believe me when I say any money or time you spend on furthering your growth as a climbing instructor is worth it.....we all learn so much when we can put ourselves in a humble place of a student and try and take as much out of any experience. That said if you take a PCGI, AMGA, or PCIA course your time and money will be better spent than just going climbing with buddies or guiding for years and years. It is so easy for us to end our climbing days and drink a beer and be stoked about how great we are or how great an experience we provided for someone else - but to allow ourselves to be put under a microscope takes a big person and if you have the right attitude you are guaranteed growth.

With full disclousure I am an AMGA certified rock guide and am currently working my way through the alpine guide program with the hopes of receiving my IFMGA certification before I end up in a nursing home. I am also a member of the AMGA SPI instructor Pool and have taught about 20 SPI programs in 5 states and have worked closely with various members of the pool. I am also friends with folks who have taken programs from all 3 organizations and am friends with current providers of the PCGI and know Tod Vogel from being a WFR recert student of mine and have met Jon T. at AMGA meetings and have a huge amount of respect for him based on his actions on still being involved and supporting a greater vision beyond personal politics and past slights.

Here is what I can offer....with an appropriate background one can provide the discipline coordinator of the SPI a CV and application for an exemption of training....I went this route years ago and even though I had instructed climbing for years and had taken an RIC with craig leubben (10 day course) ...I felt like a fish out of water on the 2 day exam with other folks that had taken the 3 day course....I have had folks on my courses who had applied for an exemption and 100% of the time they were glad to have taken the course. It is worth it and you will learn a bunch......If you don't your instructor is not teaching to the individual or you have a shitty attitude.

Land Managers for the most part are clueless. There are a few places that require an SPI certification from the AMGA - this is dated information, but recently Eldorado NF (lovers Leap) required an AMGA cert, New River Gorge, J-tree, and Pisgah as well as Ouray Ice Park. Many of these later had folks from the other organizations bring up the valid point that they also offered trainings and in some cases these other organizations were recognized.

Now for the questions that you didn't ask and the questions that many perspective SPI students should be asking their "guide training organizations" beyond the 3 day class what does the organization offer you. well the biggest benefit for the AMGA is networking. Your membership dues at the AMGA (until this years meeting - ok Im still a little grumpy about this but need to get over it) allowed you as a member to meet, many of the guides and guide service owners across the country. At this point of my short career I can bring clients that want to climb with me and guide in any region of the country through the networking opportunities I have had at AMGA meetings. I can get a job anywhere through this network as many of the company owners are at this meeting, and I learn what works and what sucks through the cadre of folks in the same boat as myself. Courses are one thing but the real value is training, and practicing for courses and exams with your peers has been one of the huge benefits.

Organizations don't matter that much....Lets be honest the curriculum of any of these organizations are fairly similar - we are all teaching how to instruct rock climbing. The thing that sets the courses apart are the venues, the conditions, and most importantly the provider. The stylistic delivery of content and how intentional your provider is with how your time is used on your course makes all the difference. Research your provider, talk to students of their courses - how effective of an educator are they and how much time do they spend talking about themselves vs allowing you to hone the skills you have just learned and how invested are they into your learning. I have taken AMGA courses where in retrospect I would have paid twice as much and every penny would have been worth it (RIP Craig) and other AMGA courses where I was so frustrated because I felt like I would have learned more if I just went out climbing with the other participants.

As far as providers go....I know it is a very difficult process to become a part of the AMGA provider pool and I know the late Adam Fox (I think he moved to Antartica or somewhere down south) used to run ITC trainings where folks who had their IFMGA pin were not accepted in the Instructor pool and the standards were really high valuing Educators over Multi Pitch or Alpine Skills. I think though that there is value having an instructor for your SPI who does more than SPI but who has also spent a huge amount of time guiding SPI terrain

As far as course and certification being a cash cow...it is easy to feel like you are throwing away cash - after all we are all peers and when I pay my tuition another guide is getting paid for a day of guiding. The reality is that most of us who guide full time are taking a HUGE pay cut to teach an SPI course (I have yet to get that record setting tip on an SPI course). It is honestly way more work and overall less fun (Hmmm this summer I got to guide a strong client up a 12 pitch route on the Incredible Hulk or jogged up for an E. Butt of Whitney Car to car with "big day" pay and a fat tip....or staying focused for a higher ratio class and really trying to streamline my education to what is really important for takeaway lessons to novice climbing instructors....the reality is that at least for me SPI courses are fun and rewarding because I am giving back and get to mentor folks that are in the shoes I was wearing 10 years ago and wish I had someone to show me the ropes and share their experience with me.

Jon T. is absolutely correct ....The AMGA dragging their feet to implement T & S guidelines is BS.
the costs of a guide education is high relative to the payoff....I just did the math and my Alpine Guide exam, Level III Avy course, and Alpine Exam were going to be around 10K with travel costs and training. I am an EMT and Paramedic School would be around 10K as well.....My alpine guide cert would end up getting me a $20 pay raise.....Paramedic would be ~$100 pay raise......Return on investment is pretty low in my neck of the woods for a 2nd cert (1st cert is golden and often required to get a resume looked at)

That said - I am grateful to have received an AMGA scholarship for next year and honestly the process go pushing myself to be the best guide that I can be is worth giving up those extra happy hour beers or working those extra days to cover the tuition costs.

OK bla bla bla......my biggest wish is this

Guiding is such a tiny industry with so many good folks with common goals.....I am a firm believer in synergy and economy of scale.

The past is the past....peoples pride and feelings have been hurt all over the little nascent industry of guiding - and that sucks - but the reality is that we are all better of and stronger by pooling our energy together. I understand that there was a time when the AMGA leadership did not value the TRSM curriculum but that is a historical issue. The AMGA SPI program has solid growth and great quality backed by good resources and a network and opportunities to move forward towards a mountain guiding career. My wish would be for all the talent of energetic folks like John, Tod, and Allan to work with folks at the AMGA to create the best possible programs rather than working independently and losing efficiency - ultimately the students end up loosing out. I think things like the new AMGA SPI textbook will really help our courses but I would love to have someone like Jon assess me teach in the field or an educator like Tod V. work with the current Instructor pool to make it sharper...Hmmm I'll always be an idealist!!

As for the PCGI - If Zack Schneider is the instructor ....From what I have heard you are going to learn a bunch - Zack is a good friend and I have worked trips for his small company, and have had friends take instructor courses from him that they were stoked on...I have heard folks having different experiences from others involved in that organization, but hey if you ask my former students and exam candidates...they may also tell you they didn't get their monies worth - its all persecutive right :)

OK enough ranting and raving - Im happy to answer any specific questions about this topic shoot me an email since I usually try and avoid forum posts in general....

Viren.perumal@gmail.com