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Ultralight C4 questions

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

Is i?t possible to have a non continuous loop

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347
miwuksurfer wrote:FYI: Metolius' new ultralight mastercams are lighter than the comparable sized "ultralight" C4s, and substantially cheaper.
My primary set of cams is Metolius ultralight. I've been looking to compliment them with another brand with different sizing. Now that BD is being made back in the states they are on my radar.
Brie Abram · · Celo, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 493
miwuksurfer wrote:FYI: Metolius' new ultralight mastercams are lighter than the comparable sized "ultralight" C4s, and substantially cheaper.
Just to save others the trouble of going back and forth comparing:

The Metolius UL Mastercam yellow #2 range is 15.5-22.5mm and weighs 55g.
The .4 gray BD UL range is 15.5-26.7mm and weighs 61g
The Metolius UL Mastercam orange #3 range is 18.5-26.5mm and weighs 65g

The .5 purple BD UL range is 19.6-33.5mm and weighs 74g.
The Metolius UL red #4 range is 23.5-33.5 and weighs 75g.

The .75 green BD UL range is 23.9-41.2mm and weighs 89g.
The Metolius UL black #5 range is 28-39.5mm and weighs 85g.

The 1 red BD UL range is 30.2-52.1mm and weighs 101g.
The Metolius green #6 range is 32.5-48mm and weighs 96g.

The 2 gold BD UL range is 37.2-64.9mm and weighs 126g.
The Metolius light blue #7 range is 40-57.5mm and weighs 112g.

The 3 blue BD UL range is 50.7-87.9mm and weighs 167g
The Metolius light purple #8 range is 48.5-71.5mm and weighs 129g.

A set of BD ULs in those 6 sizes will cover 15.5-87.9mm and weigh 618 grams
A set of Metolius ULs in those 7 sizes will cover 15.5mm-71.5mm and weigh 617 grams.

You do get one extra Metolius cam for the same weight as the BDs, but you don't get to go nearly as big. This also is assuming all else is equal. I love Mastercams up to about the #3 orange size. I love BD cams for .5 purple and up. So for me, I'm only comparing the .4 and .5 BD ULs to the Metolius UL orange and red.
Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347

Tcus and power cams are lighter than master cams too.

tom donnelly · · san diego · Joined Aug 2002 · Points: 364

Continuous loop is theoretically possible but not really practical.
Looking at an example sling, it might have about 50-70 threads (not the individual fibers, which number in the thousands). One strand could make say 50 circles of the desired diameter, then the last 20 circles could be sewn in some kind of intersecting braid/sheath to hold it together.

hikingdrew · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 38

It looks like the stem on the new c4 is continuous loop dyneema with the plastic cast around it to form the stem and keep the strands from slipping, the sling is conventional sewn dyneema webbing.

Right, you could make a single strand continuous runner by looping around a thread (kind of like a fanbelt):

1) loop a single strand of dyneema around a yoke a bunch of times to create a 2 ft loop.
2) magic happens here to bond all the strands together so they don't slip.
3) profit!

tom donnelly · · san diego · Joined Aug 2002 · Points: 364

I heard the new C4 fabric stem is not truly continuous, but uses some very fancy splicing method.

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347
hikingdrew wrote:It looks like the stem on the new c4 is continuous loop dyneema with the plastic cast around it to form the stem and keep the strands from slipping, the sling is conventional sewn dyneema webbing. Right, you could make a single strand continuous runner by looping around a thread (kind of like a fanbelt): 1) loop a single strand of dyneema around a yoke a bunch of times to create a 2 ft loop. 2) magic happens here to bond all the strands together so they don't slip. 3) profit!
Yeah, that's why I think ultrasonic welding could be a great way to bond them. I have done it at work with frequency and it works great. You'd have to find something that would work for dyneema for climbing applications. My strapping is for different purposes and the weld that we use is pretty rigid.
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

I am not sure what the real advantage to a continuous loop would be. The bartacks add no real extra weight to the sling, and if a continuous loop is even the slightest bit more expensive to make it wouldent make much sense.

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347

It would be nice to not worry about a stiff bartack when tying knots and for tripled trad slings in small biners. I can think of a few other things that would be nice. Your right that it would functional be a smaller gain.

Chris Jones · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 545

the weight savings looks to be worth it but the durability will be poor as dyneema will be weakened when exposed to air over time. the old camalots will outlast these by at least twofold. However, 25% weight savings is super attractive and people will go for that for fast and light. I am wondering if they couldn't have designed some high strength wire inside the dyneema to strengthen it without costing weight in the event of failure from wear and tear or premature dryrot. If you leave these cams fixed on a route the dry rot is going to accelerate despite no sun hitting the cam. The heat alone is going to affect the dyneema as it does with all nylon. If you were to leave your rope or your nylon slings roasting inside a metal container for a couple of weeks in the back of your suv in desert southwest heat you will quickly notice how the nylon starts to get stiff and make creaking noises when weighted. if i were to buy these cams i would store them airtight whenever not in use (i.e., waterproof gear bag of some type stored in a rubbermaid airtight container).

One other feature that would be nice for future improvements would be the extendable sling such as the one on the new wildcountry and dragon cams. would save weight and time by preventing one from carrying lots of quickdraws to fiddle with while establishing a placement.

Overall, excellent step forward in technology but a couple of more steps to go to perfection.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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