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Adam Ondra: "Any climber with mediocre stregnth can climb at least V8 given perfect technique" Thoughts?

J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
ViperScale wrote: So you can climb a V10 of x style doesn't mean you can touch a V6 of y style.
The huge gap you describe is a fallacy, I would say the gap is two grades at best. The overwhelming majority of V10 climbers can climb any V6 provided they are healthy. Sometimes it might take them a week or so to get used to the rock if they are at a new area.

Some V8's go down with technique, others with brute force, and there is one out there that is near tailor made for everyone. I believe Adam is mostly right with one large exception: not any climber can climb V8 because some climbers, even with perfect technique, will injure their tendons. With his genetics he really doesn't understand that part.
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
Jon Nelson wrote:Thanks Slim, for the listing. Two questions: 1) It sounds like these are all for a wide crack in a corner. What do you mean by 'calf hook the corner wall'? 2) About the lower-foot case: I don't recall ever seeing anyone do this, except maybe in a corner. Do you have a picture of someone doing this move?
calf hooking is where you basically have the corner of the rock directly in the area behind your knee and the backside of your calf is flush against the rock. the most common time to use it is if the rock on the main wall inside the crack has a ton of loose crap on it. i am not very good at this technique, but i have partners who are very good at it.

low foot drop knee is used either when you won't have the reach to hit the dead point with the foot on a lower hold, particularly if you need to control barn door, and you have to use a higher foot. also common if you are climbing into a hanging roof/dihedral and have to get your low foot high and press into stemming. this is really strenuous on the core. both of these situations are very technical, usually used on those types of routes where all of the holds are facing the wrong way.

i don't have any photos of anything, i don't really ever bring a camera out. maybe someone has something.
Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
slim wrote: i'm not surprised, looking at your tick list... it takes a lot of experience on a lot of types of rock and climbing styles to really understand these things.
So you assume that my list of assents is limited to the few times I've chosen to spray on MP, nice. And what exactly are you basing that off. I'm middle aged and have been climbing since 1994 how much experience will I need before I and the rest of the climbing community understand your "legworks" Go update your tick list so you can stroke your self to sleep. Again all of the stuff mentioned is in my opinion foot work hence the requirement to use the words foot feet heel toe and step so often in the post. legworks...ha whatever dude.
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
gription wrote: So you assume that my list of assents is limited to the few times I've chosen to spray on MP, nice. And what exactly are you basing that off. I'm middle aged and have been climbing since 1994 how much experience will I need before I and the rest of the climbing community understand your "legworks" Go update your tick list so you can stroke your self to sleep. Again all of the stuff mentioned is in my opinion foot work hence the requirement to use the words foot feet heel toe and step so often in the post. legworks...ha whatever dude.
ahhh, the old 'i really climb 13X, but i only ticked my 5.9 routes' routine. never seen that one before....

one would be surprised how much one could learn about climbing, as well as improve at it, if one realized that they don't know everything about it....
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
gription wrote: I'm middle aged and have been climbing since 1994 how much experience will I need...
From another thread:
gription wrote:I was in the military for quite some time and spent 10 years away and not climbing. I have only returned to climbing since 2011 and really didn't get into the swing of things until 2013 when I got out of the Navy.
Great that you were serving in the armed forces...but way to misrepresent your climbing experience.
Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
slim wrote:ahhh, the old 'i really climb 13X, but i only ticked my 5.9 routes' routine. never seen that one before.... one would be surprised how much one could learn about climbing, as well as improve at it, if one realized that they don't know everything about it....
Yah in 20 years I've only climed two 5.9 routes in the portal thats total sum of my XP. The reason I "ticked" those routes via MP was to make comments in the routes section not to let the world know what grades I climb at. I have practiced most of the techniques you decribed I just dont agree with your classification of them. It's sorta like the is pluto a planet argument. Regardless of our personal disagrement it's still there and will not change just becuase you call it by another name. And as far as the OP goes I think it's an oversimplification/false attempt at modesty.
Daryl Allan · · Sierra Vista, AZ · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 1,040

Adam who?

Jon Nelson · · Redmond, WA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 8,196

"calf hooking is where you basically have the corner of the rock directly in the area behind your knee and the backside of your calf is flush against the rock. ...
low foot drop knee is used either when you won't have the reach to hit the dead point with the foot on a lower hold, particularly if you need to control barn door, and you have to use a higher foot. also common if you are climbing into a hanging roof/dihedral and have to get your low foot high and press into stemming. "

Thanks!

I was confused trying to identify corner wall and main wall, but now I get the picture.

The low-foot drop knee sounds like it requires a lot of leg power, as well as flexibility.

Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
reboot wrote: From another thread: Great that you were serving in the armed forces...but way to misrepresent your climbing experience.
your opinion. On and off for twenty plus years is plenty.
Altered Ego · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 0

When you look in the mirror, what do you see? Do you see the real you, or what you have been conditioned to believe is you? The two are so, so different. One is an infinite consciousness capable of being and creating whatever it chooses, the other is an illusion imprisoned by its own perceived and programmed limitations.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
Nivel Egres wrote: Sorry, the foot of the inner (knee-dropping) leg is higher or lower then the other foot?
in this case the inner knee dropping leg is the low foot. generally, whenever possible you really want to have the high foot doing the drop knee as it is a lot less strenuous to get in and out of. with the low foot drop knee the sequence to get into it is pretty key, otherwise like jon nelson pointed out, it is really a gut buster to get in and out of.

if possible you want to set up the high foot first, pop the lower foot into place and drop the knee. if you try to set up the drop knee, and then pop the high foot above it, it is pretty tough.
Walter Galli · · Las vegas · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 2,247

I think talking about Ondra is like talk about Shumacher on F1 racing, is just the top climber at the moment, we can all just learn from him watching climb and try to understand what is doing and why is doing it at that specific moment, plus climbing is changed from the 70's to now but the rocks are still the same so is climbing really changed or maybe we have just more access to Internet and we can watch more video and tecnics and from it learn more so our climbing get better, but guys believe me the same hard ways of the 70's are still the same hard ways of our days.. Just my 2 cents opinion,,, PS feel the rock, she will let you on the right pat...

Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245

the key term that needs to be defined here is "mediocre strength". Adam Ondra's "mediocre strength" is probably stronger than I am, so this quote doesn't really mean much to me.

Jon Frisby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 270

I can think of problems in that range where I have exerted V4-5ish strength because it was all tech. That says that if you are strong enough for V5, there might be some V8s you can do, but a) that's not all or even many V8s, and it relies on V4-5 being "mediocre strength"

Jon Frisby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 270
Wolverine wrote:I think talking about Ondra is like talk about Shumacher on F1 racing, is just the top climber at the moment, we can all just learn from him watching climb and try to understand what is doing and why is doing it at that specific moment, plus climbing is changed from the 70's to now but the rocks are still the same so is climbing really changed or maybe we have just more access to Internet and we can watch more video and tecnics and from it learn more so our climbing get better, but guys believe me the same hard ways of the 70's are still the same hard ways of our days.. Just my 2 cents opinion,,, PS feel the rock, she will let you on the right pat...
I think to some extent the fact that people like Adam started climbing when they were babies has actually made them "evolve" in such a way that there are noticeable differences from what the old greats did.
Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245

aren't there studies that have proven the ability of tissue like ligaments and tendons to strengthen faster and stronger in younger people? So much so that those of us that started climbing after puberty have to train much longer and at lighter loads to achieve even a fraction of the same tensile strength as someone who began before puberty?

Jon Frisby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 270

yup. kid at my gym who's like 10 has been progressing at an absurd rate it seems.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

Maybe, but there is not a person alive, Ondra included, that has perfect technique, or even close to perfect for that matter. Watch the video that comes with the Self-Coached Climber. The entire purpose of the video, more or less, is to point out technique flaws and corrections in Chris Lindner's technique. Chris is a 5.14+ climber, yet the video constantly shows several flaws in his technique. I saw a video of Sharma projecting in which it showed side by side two burns, one in which he sticks a move and one in which he does not, and you can notice a difference in technique and how it attributed to him sticking the move vs falling.

Erik Keever · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 414
Jon Frisby wrote:I can think of problems in that range where I have exerted V4-5ish strength because it was all tech. That says that if you are strong enough for V5, there might be some V8s you can do, but a) that's not all or even many V8s, and it relies on V4-5 being "mediocre strength"
I've concluded: Finger strength is everything, and technique is a reasonably close second. Technique makes most problems easier, strength makes *all* problems easier.

Technique tells you what to do, but at some point you're not going to be able to invent a way to finesse something away. You just need to glue your hand to that despicable sloper, or pinch that hateful crimp into dust, and there's no getting around it.

We can argue the exact details forever, but Ondra obviously conceptually right: Who here DOESN'T know at least one guy who uses huge strength to muscle his way through problems while we sit and think, "damn, if he'd learn some technique he'd go up a grade overnight"?

As far as the details [because who can resist a subjective argument]... I usually have a fair shot at V6es in the gym; I can no more imagine any amount of technique bringing a V8 within reach than I can imagine technique helping me pick up a V8 engine, and for the same reason.
Walter Galli · · Las vegas · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 2,247
Jon Frisby wrote: I think to some extent the fact that people like Adam started climbing when they were babies has actually made them "evolve" in such a way that there are noticeable differences from what the old greats did.
Absolutely true, his body just evolve in climbing dramatically.....
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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