Multi-pitch anchor building using the rope?

Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:is it a Brit thing to belay off your tie-in without using guide mode? i have literally never done that... Even craging

Not just Brits. And I assume you belay the leader off the belay loop?

Also common in snow, when there are no good anchors.

Or when moving fast.

Or when using a grigri to bring the second up, if you have clipped the first bolt on the next pitch

Or when the second plans to fall off and try the sequence a few times and hence needs to be lowered several times.

A redirect helps with the latter.

by no means i am i saying that its bad practice... so please dont think that...just never done it. I have done the bad anchor with my body in the middle thing... but not in vertical conditions.

john strand wrote:HA ! I'm originally from the NE, home of the tree anchor! Tie a BIG fig 8 loop and clip in direct to your harness after going around the tree. The only way this can fail is if the tree uproots or you are sucked through the biners. You also can move around pretty good.

+1

gription wrote: Not true. Tie a figure of eight in the free strand, clip it to the power point with a locker and then transfer to the single strand. You're on rappel!

Err... what free strand? The free strand in RGold's photo goes through the belay device and then down to the climber.

How do you set up for the NEXT rappel?
And if you are only on a single pitch, why do you need to rappel with your climber? Why not just lower?

wivanoff wrote: RGold's photo

wasn't talking about his photo and that was days ago...

gription wrote: wasn't talking about his photo and that was days ago...

OK. You quoted me. And both Adam Burch and I were discussing RGold's photo. Which were you talking about?

Days ago? LOL.... You were quoting me from over a year ago

wivanoff wrote: OK. You quoted me. And both Adam Burch and I were discussing RGold's photo. Which were you talking about? Days ago? LOL.... You were quoting me from over a year ago

too much vodka. I am leaving this thread

Marc Marion wrote: I have used this method as originally described by rgold with great success.  The butterfly powerpoint is great for hooking up the belay in guide mode and creates an easily escapable system. The rest are clove hitches. Quick, resilient, adjustable, stout. Thanks to rgold for the pic.

What happened to the photograph referenced in this post? It appears to be missing :(

The "slack rope redirection point" is strictly optional; I rarely make that part of the rigging.  

It is, I think, obvious how to continue the rigging for, say, four pieces or to add an upward directional.

The note about clipping the free strand back to the power point has to do with a load transfer to that free strand as an intermediate step in getting the load onto the power point, but there are also ways of doing this that don't use the free strand at all.  If the free strand is going to be weighted, clipping it back to the power point distributes the load to all three anchor points rather than just one.

Yeah! Thank you

Thanks for this thread, it's helped a lot.

bearbreeder wrote:   The much disparaged brit method ... 

Why is the "brit method" much disparaged? Seems solid and versatile.

Alex W wrote:

Thanks for this thread, it's helped a lot.

Why is the "brit method" much disparaged? Seems solid and versatile.

As others have stated, it uses alot of rope and can take time to get it done (when you're not familiar with it) and it complicates escaping the belay. 

This type of anchor done on both ends of the rope can eat up a ton of rope. An average untied cordelette offers the same benefits but uses less rope. 

Craig Childre wrote: I would like to see if anyone has some good examples of anchor construction using the rope only. I'm interested in any tips and advise on what to focus on and what to avoid. Second. I am interested if anyone uses the 'Triple Loop Figure 8'? It takes some practice to get it equalized. Uses less rope than the BFK you get with a six strand figure 8. I appreciate any input. Pic of the weave for a triple loop figure 8:

Just in case it hasn't been mentioned, head over to multipitchclimbing.com 

Basicly clove hitches 

The second needs to carry 3 spare carabiners if you are not swinging leads. These are termed magic carabiners and he uses them to tie into the pieces BELOW the leader's strands

rgold wrote:

The "slack rope redirection point" is strictly optional; I rarely make that part of the rigging.

It is, I think, obvious how to continue the rigging for, say, four pieces or to add an upward directional.

The note about clipping the free strand back to the power point has to do with a load transfer to that free strand as an intermediate step in getting the load onto the power point, but there are also ways of doing this that don't use the free strand at all.  If the free strand is going to be weighted, clipping it back to the power point distributes the load to all three anchor points rather than just one.

The buttetfly knot is the power point? Forgive my lack of experience but it's a knot, you can't clip it. Isn't part of the point of a masterpoint that you have a loop to clip to? Would you belay from the harness with that anchor? Then wouldn't your belay loop be the masterpoint?

Also why am I seeing so many anchors where you're just belaying off two pieces? Example the Yosemite Anchor. And the belayer is only cloved to the 3rd piece and not backed up, or would they also clip the masterpoint? Obviously this is widely used safely, but it seems sketchy to me as a relative newcomer.

Alex W wrote:

The buttetfly knot is the power point? Forgive my lack of experience but it's a knot, you can't clip it. Isn't part of the point of a masterpoint that you have a loop to clip to? Would you belay from the harness with that anchor? Then wouldn't your belay loop be the masterpoint?

Also why am I seeing so many anchors where you're just belaying off two pieces? Example the Yosemite Anchor. And the belayer is only cloved to the 3rd piece and not backed up, or would they also clip the masterpoint? Obviously this is widely used safely, but it seems sketchy to me as a relative newcomer.

With the caveat that I'm a bit of a newcomer as well (started trad climbing last fall, been aid soloing since december), here's my unterstanding:

The alpine butterly knot, when tied on a bight (which it usually is), creates a loop you can clip into:  ropelab.com.au/the-awesome-…

I would still belay off my harness with that setup, but that wouldn't make my harness the masterpoint; the masterpoint is simply the strongest/equilized point of the anchor, and the main point in the anchor you clip stuff into, whether you belay off it or not.

In terms of number of pieces in an anchor, most guides I've talked to say that two bomber pieces are sufficient, but three is good for redundancy; I like making my anchors with four pieces though.

Yes, the belayer would typically clip into the masterpoint in some way; in fact, in that particular setup, the belayer is effectively already clipped into the masterpoint as the strand leading down from the butterfly is the one the belayer is tied into.

Personally I think that setup seems like a bit of a mess, and I'd rather just use slings to build my anchor; the equalized redirection point is pretty nifty though.

Whole section on it here:

https://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm#powerpointsmadefromtherope

David Coley wrote:

Whole section on it here:

https://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm#powerpointsmadefromtherope

David's link made clickable: https://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm#belaysbuiltfromtherope

Alex W wrote:

The buttetfly knot is the power point? Forgive my lack of experience but it's a knot, you can't clip it. Isn't part of the point of a masterpoint that you have a loop to clip to? 

The butterfly knot in question is a loop knot.

Would you belay from the harness with that anchor? Then wouldn't your belay loop be the masterpoint?

You can do either.  With anchors constructed with slings, the point everything is clipped to is unambiguously called the master point.  With a rope set-up, the butterfly loop serves as a masterpoint if you are going to clip a plaquette to it and belay in guide mode.  If you are doing one of the basic harness belays, there is nothing behaving as a master point.

Also why am I seeing so many anchors where you're just belaying off two pieces? Example the Yosemite Anchor. And the belayer is only cloved to the 3rd piece and not backed up, or would they also clip the masterpoint? Obviously this is widely used safely, but it seems sketchy to me as a relative newcomer.

Two-piece anchors are more typical in situations where speed matters and the party is lightly equipped.  They are usually "good enough," especially if they consist of a pair of properly-installed modern bolts, but also if constructed in good rock with things bigger than micro-gear.  The spirit of three-piece anchors is that "just good enough " may not be good enough, and additional safety margins are desirable (in general, accepted engineering margins are well beyond what rock climbers ever achieve).  In this regard, we have to acknowledge the profound ignorance that almost all climbers, including the most experienced ones, really have about their anchors.  Virtually no one builds anchors and then tests them to failure to see how their judgements correspond to reality.  Most people learn by having other people instruct them, the instructors having learned the same way.  Although the system has worked pretty well---belay anchor failures are real but very rare---the three-piece anchor is a nod to the fundamental uncertainty that underlies the entire process.  

I think intelligent parties choose their anchor strategies based on the situation rather than on some mantra about how many pieces are required. And by "the situation," I mean not only the rock configuration, but also whether the party is on a relatively benign crag or a potentially storm-tossed peak, One size doesn't fit all.

Trevor wrote: This is kind of a thread hijack but what's the best way to sling a tree or a constriction with the rope?

Connecticut hitch works really well, although the intuitive method described up thread, big Ol’ loop around the tree and clip it back to your belay loop works well too and is bomber, though not easily adjustable on the fly. 

rgold wrote:

The butterfly knot in question is a loop knot.

Hi rgold, 

Is there a reason you use an alpine butterfly here and not a figure 8 on a bight for the master point? Concern over rolling?
Thanks!