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Multi-pitch anchor building using the rope?

Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175

NC Rock Climber is right.

At least post some pictures of your aquarium, and ramble incoherently like Joan Lee/Elanor.

That's skillllllllllllll

ddriver · · SLC · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 2,084
bearbreeder wrote: Its pretty hilarious that you are "guiding" on crap anchors And dont even recognize the danger of a biner loaded over an edge
Bear, I use guiding in the sense that I led my wife up the route in question. We swap leads as much as she's comfortable, and she tried leading one or two pitches on this route but was put off by the lack of gear. So, from a mechanics standpoint of how you bring someone into a belay and do rope management, it is in all practical purposes guiding.

I put the last photo in because I knew it would bring out alarmist responses like yours. When that piece is loaded the biner winds up below the edge. Plus, if you were to look closely you'd realize there's more anchor out of the picture.

What I find really funny is that you think the anchors are crap. Two pins in limestone may not be ideal, but you have to accept that you may not get more than that, and simul-climbing above may be less palatable than just accepting your first option.

In both cases the anchors are far better than you give credit for. The OP will have learn over time what level of trust to put in his gear.

What the second photo should show the OP is that 90% of the time you can use your rope to build an anchor system where the loading is shared in sequence rather than in parallel. That seems to be the major disconnect for people learning how to climb these days with modern sensibilities about anchor building. I have climbed with people who use cordelettes but I do not use one because it is completely unnecessary and it means I'm carrying more stuff and I move slower. Cordelettes allow you to create parallel loading, which is certainly safe and convenient. Sequential loading is just as good, and can be evenly distributed, and that is how using the rope for anchoring should be understood.

What the second photo also shows is how to use a bight in the rope to create parallel loading for the re-direct where you have questionable pieces. Didn't need a cord for that. And, the hex in that pocket is bomber.

So, back to the OP's question of how to use the rope to build anchors for multi-pitch climbing. I'm going to stand by what I said. Use hitches to tie pieces together in sequential loading rather than parallel. Its been that way for decades. You're not building top-rope anchors here or fixing ropes for someone to jug on. Don't expect these anchor systems to look the same. I see people struggling to build stuff like some here have suggested quite often. It is because they have been told that complex systems that create parallel loading are requisite for safety. That's a falsehood. There are many ways to build anchors, the more you understand the better off you'll be.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
ddriver wrote: Bear, I use guiding in the sense that I led my wife up the route in question. We swap leads as much as she's comfortable, and she tried leading one or two pitches on this route but was put off by the lack of gear. So, from a mechanics standpoint of how you bring someone into a belay and do rope management, it is in all practical purposes guiding. I put the last photo in because I knew it would bring out alarmist responses like yours. When that piece is loaded the biner winds up below the edge. Plus, if you were to look closely you'd realize there's more anchor out of the picture. What I find really funny is that you think the anchors are crap. Two pins in limestone may not be ideal, but you have to accept that you may not get more than that, and simul-climbing above may be less palatable than just accepting your first option. In both cases the anchors are far better than you give credit for. The OP will have learn over time what level of trust to put in his gear. What the second photo should show the OP is that 90% of the time you can use your rope to build an anchor system where the loading is shared in sequence rather than in parallel. That seems to be the major disconnect for people learning how to climb these days with modern sensibilities about anchor building. I have climbed with people who use cordelettes but I do not use one because it is completely unnecessary and it means I'm carrying more stuff and I move slower. Cordelettes allow you to create parallel loading, which is certainly safe and convenient. Sequential loading is just as good, and can be evenly distributed, and that is how using the rope for anchoring should be understood. What the second photo also shows is how to use a bight in the rope to create parallel loading for the re-direct where you have questionable pieces. Didn't need a cord for that. And, the hex in that pocket is bomber. So, back to the OP's question of how to use the rope to build anchors for multi-pitch climbing. I'm going to stand by what I said. Use hitches to tie pieces together in sequential loading rather than parallel. Its been that way for decades. You're not building top-rope anchors here or fixing ropes for someone to jug on. Don't expect these anchor systems to look the same. I see people struggling to build stuff like some here have suggested quite often. It is because they have been told that complex systems that create parallel loading are requisite for safety. That's a falsehood. There are many ways to build anchors, the more you understand the better off you'll be.
You do realize that your gate in that pic is pushing right against the rock???

"Alarmist reponse" for pointing that out

Its fairly irrelevant that you have another piece for that anchor, which if it fails would mean all the loading is on your biner loaded over the edge with an open gate

If you are going to show folks how to build anchors show em the PROPER way ... After that they can make their own judgement

As to you second anchor why in the world are you using to extra draws when you dont need to ???

For a two point "proper anchor"

- clove first piece, clove second with a bit of slack, clove the a locker (or tie a fig 8) into the slack in the middle ... And optionally clove back to yourself or yr PAS

Two point rope anchor

For a 3 piece "proper anchor"

- do the same as the 2 piece, but then clove to the third piece

Simply clove the third piece

Its much simpler, easier, wastes less gear and just ad fast as the crap anchors you "guide" on

If you are going to "teach folks" over The intrawebs ... Show em properly

;)
DesertRat · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 196

I didn't go through all the comments to see if someone had already suggested this, but here is what I do.

- Arrive at top of pitch
- Put in 3 pieces (usually)
- Clove hitch myself into one piece
- Arrange some slack and tie a bunny ears.
- Clip bunny ears into other 2 pieces and equalize
- Off belay (or before this if you feel comfortable with your clove on 1 piece)
- Tie equalized knot for master point between cloved piece and other two pieces.
- Set up belay

You could also add the variation like what was posted above to equalize your tie in point to all 3 anchors as well.

Once the pieces are in, it takes all of 2 minutes to set up and takes down even faster.

NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60
ddriver wrote: Bear, I use (meaningless words deleted to save space) you'll be.
I am beginning to think that you are serious and not a troll, and I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. Either way, I really think that you should go back to RC.com. The site is under new ownership and they are looking for people to help them build the community over there.

Cheers!
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

In Squamish I heard the 5 point anchor is the "proper way", that way when the first piece blows and then the second, then the third you have 2 more to back you up from certain death. Its on the Petxl website I hear.

Robbie Mackley · · Tucson, AZ · Joined May 2010 · Points: 85

Ddriver, the only thing more noobish than your anchors is your arrogant arguments where you admit to impersonating a guide online when called out. You didn't guide shit. You lead the pitches your partner wasn't comfortable with. That's a part of multi pitch climbing, and the only other option is to bail.
Guides have certifications. You have some gear and an outdated copy of "how to climb, 1st edition".
Let's maintain some minimum standards while we e-spray.
-Mackley

Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860
john strand wrote:Escaping the belay escapes me....I have never done this either.
Pretty much limited to emergency situations. For some, you should know it before doing any multipitch work. I learned the technique before leaving the single pitch world. I've never used it in a hot situation, and hope I never do. Most likely senario. Your leader falls, gets knocked out, and cannot be safely lowered, like a mid pitch ledge, or a wandering route. Basically you transfer the injured climber's load onto the anchor, off your harness so you can ascend the rope and effect a rescue. Good knowledge to possess, and could help to put a potential partners mind at ease, and perhaps sway their opinion. I haven't practiced for too long. It's good to train in this discipline, as an emergency situation can cloud your mind.
Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860
Marc Marion wrote:I have used this method as originally described by rgold with great success. The butterfly powerpoint is great for hooking up the belay in guide mode and creates an easily escapable system. The rest are clove hitches. Quick, resilient, adjustable, stout. Thanks to rgold for the pic.
Fantastic... I really like that redirect point. Helpful if you need to raise your 2nd, or invert an auto-block for slack.
David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
Craig Childre wrote: Pretty much limited to emergency situations.
Hi, although I have escaped the system in an emergency a few times, I've escaped it 100's of times when it is not an emergency. This is more of a case of escaping the belay as the rope isn't weighted. Examples include regularly rapping down to get stuck people, stuck gear, stuck animals. Going for a shit. Going for an un-ropped wander to find the rest of the route. Swapping ends when alternating the leader when climbing in a 3.....

A DIL-style belay makes all of these a lot easier then tying back to the harness would.
Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860

Great points.... I hadn't considered other ways to utilize it. Only learned it for safety. Thanks.

luke · · San Diego CA · Joined May 2015 · Points: 10
bearbreeder wrote: You do realize that your gate in that pic is pushing right against the rock??? "Alarmist reponse" for pointing that out Its fairly irrelevant that you have another piece for that anchor, which if it fails would mean all the loading is on your biner loaded over the edge with an open gate If you are going to show folks how to build anchors show em the PROPER way ... After that they can make their own judgement As to you second anchor why in the world are you using to extra draws when you dont need to ??? For a two point "proper anchor" - clove first piece, clove second with a bit of slack, clove the a locker (or tie a fig 8) into the slack in the middle ... And optionally clove back to yourself or yr PAS For a 3 piece "proper anchor" - do the same as the 2 piece, but then clove to the third piece Its much simpler, easier, wastes less gear and just ad fast as the crap anchors you "guide" on If you are going to "teach folks" over The intrawebs ... Show em properly ;)
Thanks for this @bearbreeder, it's a great series of photos. I wonder if you could help with a quick explanation of how to swap out from your two point anchor example for the belayer to go back on lead? I can see how this method would be great when swapping leads but if I'm leading every route (always sport routes with bolts at rap/belay) and assuming that the belay station anchors are single bolts (no chains) how would you go about safely swapping the follower back to belayer? We usually use a cordelette quad for ease and independence but I'd like to explore simply using the rope.

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525

for block leading, it's easier to use cordelette. for bolted anchors, just stick to the quad, it's quick, easy and bomber

luke · · San Diego CA · Joined May 2015 · Points: 10
eli poss wrote:for block leading, it's easier to use cordelette. for bolted anchors, just stick to the quad, it's quick, easy and bomber
That's pretty much my feeling but I thought maybe I was missing some easy technique with the rope... and it rarely hurts to ask lol. Thanks!
Rob WardenSpaceLizard · · las Vegans, the cosmic void · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 130

is it a Brit thing to belay off your tie-in without using guide mode? i have literally never done that... Even craging

Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
wivanoff wrote: Easy escape: If you need to rappel with the climber, you will have to rebuild the anchor using other slings/cord and transfer the load to the new anchor.
Not true. Tie a figure of eight in the free strand, clip it to the power point with a locker and then transfer to the single strand. You're on rappel!
David Gibbs · · Ottawa, ON · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2
luketipple wrote: I wonder if you could help with a quick explanation of how to swap out from your two point anchor example for the belayer to go back on lead?
Follower can just build a 2nd anchor with their own pair of biners under the leader's anchor, and use that. Or, on two bolts, just clove-hitch in to them in series.
ac1 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 10

+1

luke · · San Diego CA · Joined May 2015 · Points: 10
David Gibbs wrote: Follower can just build a 2nd anchor with their own pair of biners under the leader's anchor
Good tip. Thanks!
eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:is it a Brit thing to belay off your tie-in without using guide mode? i have literally never done that... Even craging
i've done this, although not off the tie-in loop. When the anchor is on a big ledge, i will adjust my tie-in so that it get's me a tiny bit past the edge of the ledge. then a clove a locker into my tie-in at the perfect length away from me and belay off a munter or guide-mode depending on the situation.

Doing this allows me to see my second and give a good belay with the belay device/munter not out of reach. I personally prefer this to belaying off the tie-in loop for two reasons:
1 belaying off the tie in loop is awkward for me when belaying the second
2 I can untie if need be without having to transfer the belay
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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