fixe chains breaking and cracks

M Sprague wrote:I was thinking more in terms of the actual decision of what lines to bolt, inane grid bolted variations and bolt location.

Stupid can't be regulated.

Inane variations, squeeze jobs, and bolt a meter silliness will always exist.

Also, those that are apt to do this won't be the ones searching for the best practices.

FWIW, if the first ascentionist sets up a stupid scenario on a rap bolted line, I feel no obligation to keep his bolts where he put them.

How many people on this thread have actually replaced a glue-in in the same hole or had to remove 10 of them because they were vandalized???

I've removed about 10 glue-ins in my life... in total, it took many hours. At least 10-15 min of blow torching each one with MAP gas, then there's breaking the air seal as you try to twist and pry to slowly work it out of the hole. All while working with glowing hot metal that will instantly melt ropes, webbing, harness, skin, etc if you accidentally touch anything. Then there's not trying to scar the rock with your tools as you work around this glowing hot bolt. Not to mention the fumes of the burning glue, although some might cite this as a positive part of the process, it sucks. As far as cutting off the old bolt and attempting to patch it... gimme a break, that's a load of non-sustainable horse turds. If that's your solution I would challenge you to aim for a higher standard.

I'm having a lot trouble believing that all you guys have done this process and are speaking from an informed point of view re glueins being so good.

I think as developers we should be looking at sustainability of the process over say, 100, heck 150-200 years. We will be judged then on our choices now. Do we want several iterations of patched holes containing glue and metal chucks from our bolts or one small hole that gets reused once every 20 years?

The argument of longevity is great but if its done at the cost of the sustainability of the process then it shouldnt be considered a good alternative unless there are extenuating circumstances (ie sea cliffs and titanium).

I really fail to see from a big picture the advantange of gluein 314s over 304 SS 5 piece bolt. IMO the 5 piece balances all the needs with the only downside being reduction of longivity. It is a highly sustainable process, cost effective, easy to place and remove. This fixe issue seems to be a weld issue anyway not a SS composition correct?

I drill all my holes the length of the drill bit, like 6" and, for the first bolting we are using long 4" bolts so there plenty of room to hammer the cone back down further into the hole and keep using 4" or slowly every 20 years or so move to a smaller bolt. When the hole is filled with cones after 100-150 years, core drill the hole and start over in the same hole. So I don't see the benefit of going to glue or 316 because the 5 pieces aren't available in 316.

what am i missing?

Morgan Patterson wrote:How many people on this thread have actually replaced a glue-in in the same hole or had to remove 10 of them because they were vandalized??? I've removed about 10 glue-ins in my life... in total, it took many hours. At least 10-15 min of blow torching each one with MAP gas, then there's breaking the air seal as you try to twist and pry to slowly work it out of the hole. All while working with glowing hot metal that will instantly melt ropes, webbing, harness, skin, etc if you accidentally touch anything. Then there's not trying to scar the rock with your tools as you work around this glowing hot bolt. Not to mention the fumes of the burning glue, although some might cite this as a positive part of the process, it sucks. As far as cutting off the old bolt and attempting to patch it... gimme a break, that's a load of non-sustainable horse turds. If that's your solution I would challenge you to aim for a higher standard. I'm having a lot trouble believing that all you guys have done this process and are speaking from an informed point of view re glueins being so good. I think as developers we should be looking at sustainability of the process over say, 100, heck 150-200 years. We will be judged then on our choices now. Do we want several iterations of patched holes containing glue and metal chucks from our bolts or one small hole that gets reused once every 20 years? The argument of longevity is great but if its done at the cost of the sustainability of the process then it shouldnt be considered a good alternative unless there are extenuating circumstances (ie sea cliffs and titanium). I really fail to see from a big picture the advantange of gluein 314s over 304 SS 5 piece bolt. IMO the 5 piece balances all the needs with the only downside being reduction of longivity. It is a highly sustainable process, cost effective, easy to place and remove. This fixe issue seems to be a weld issue anyway not a SS composition correct? I drill all my holes the length of the drill bit, like 6" and, for the first bolting we are using long 4" bolts so there plenty of room to hammer the cone back down further into the hole and keep using 4" or slowly every 20 years or so move to a smaller bolt. When the hole is filled with cones after 100-150 years, core drill the hole and start over in the same hole. So I don't see the benefit of going to glue or 316 because the 5 pieces aren't available in 316. what am i missing?

And that's not even mentioning the fact that in most parts of the US, the 304 power bolts will easily last over 50 years. Yes, 304 is a bit more susceptible to SCC than 316, but in most areas of the US SCC is not an issue at all.

Also, with gregger man's stud bolt removal procedures, even removing studs is quite simple (in my limited experience, even easier than removing a rusted 5-piece). So as long as it's stainless and of sufficient strength for climbing applications, pretty much any bolt is easier to remove and replace than a glue-in.

Is vandalism really an issue?

I've heard of it online and heard an ODUB song about it. In practice, I have never once seen vandalism.

I've seen stolen hangers and bolts. I've seen spray paint. I've seen chipping. I've even seen names carved by nut tools. I've never seen hangers smashed flat.

If you live in an area that this is common place, I think maybe a level discussion with the climbing community is the solution. Rapidly replaced bolts doesn't address the underlying issue and ultimately, a vandal with a hammer is always faster than you with a bolt kit.

You make an excellent point about replacing glue ins. I've never taken one out but I think everything you said about them is true.

If the bolt is corroded enough by then, you'd break the eye off trying to remove it and then you're really screwed.

20 years is seriously light weight though. If you can realistically rephrase the above using 50 instead of 20, I'm all ears.

The method for removing bolts like the Wave Bolts and Jim's version is to cut off the head and then core drill them with a water cooled core bit that cuts out a cylinder around the bolt. I have never done it myself, but it sounds a lot safer than the old heat and pull technique, though still complicated and time consuming.

edit - there is a description of the process on Jim Titt's site bolt-products.com/Sustainab… and they suggest it required a bit over 4 minutes to drill out an old bolt in granite. That doesn't seem bad. I may have to withdraw my reservations about using glue-ins everywhere. In fact I think I will order some from from Jim when I get my next batch of bolts if the shipping is not too much, which will now allow me to completely boycott Fixe for selling all those crap plated bolts. (They definitely sell some good stuff though, so I hope they remove the crap so they can be supported).

mattm wrote: AFAIK, Wave Bolts are currently 304SS from Climb Tech.

I just emailed them and Chris Vinson said it's still 316L. I too recall hearing them say they switched to 304 at one point though...

eli poss wrote:Question: Would using a Ti ring or quicklink connected to plated or stainless chains or hangers cause galvanic corrosion? After looking at Titan's website, I'm considering using either their rings or quicklinks next time I have to replace some worn quicklinks/rap rings because it sounds like they don't wear.

We have many hundreds of Ti bolts with 316 quicklinks on them. They are fine. I am not as sure about plated steel though.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:I put this together to help me be clear on options. It's basically a thought process, not a proposal. Here is the grainger (maybe cheaper elsewhere) prices on using 316 threaded rod. Here's what I found. 6 feet of 1/2" threaded rod, 316 316 Nuts Fixe 316 Hanger For the 6' rod, that's 18 four inch bolts, really 16 or 17 when you count for cutting and inevitably messing one up. So, the rod is $1.67 per 4" bolt. Plus $.29 per nut for 316. (Approx, I actually didn't find the exact nut match in my 20 second search). Plus $6.35 for a Fixe 316 hanger. Are there other options out there? So, we're at $8.30 per bolt. Only a wee bit cheaper than a wave bolt, if they are still 316. Approximately the same as a wave bolt with a lot more prep work. I didn't count glue cost because the Wave also takes glue. Should I have counted angle grinder cost and time? Pro's to doing it this way -No waiting for the climbing world to step up. -Would get extremely cheap if another viable 316 hanger option comes up. -Replaceable hanger Con's vs wave bolt. -Trickier placement and more finicky until the glue hardens -More DIY time -Would not work on overhang without duct-tape trickery Other thoughts A piece of threaded rod would be easier to remove. Propane torch + vice grips. The wave would require that and a prybar and/or hammer. Proper prep of threaded rod would be fairly variable among users. Americans don't like glue, this would be a tough sell over mechanical bolts.

Allthread typically has poor/ fair corrosion resistance because the channels allow for salt crystals (or other material) to rest, creating localized and aggressive pitting and SCC. A smooth, polished finish is far superior, so even though the bar is 316, I would still expect a 316 glue-in like the Wave Bolt (if it's still 316) to last much longer.

mattm wrote: Titan's Ti Bolts start at $12.30US

Actually they start at $10 if you are installing in hard rock.

titanclimbing.com/Titan%20C…

M Sprague wrote:The method for removing bolts like the Wave Bolts and Jim's version is to cut off the head and then core drill them with a water cooled core bit that cuts out a cylinder around the bolt. I have never done it myself, but it sounds a lot safer than the old heat and pull technique, though still complicated and time consuming. edit - there is a description of the process on Jim Titt's site bolt-products.com/Sustainab… and they suggest it required a bit over 4 minutes to drill out an old bolt in granite. That doesn't seem bad. I may have to withdraw my reservations about using glue-ins everywhere. In fact I think I will order some from from Jim when I get my next batch of bolts if the shipping is not too much, which will now allow me to completely boycott Fixe for selling all those crap plated bolts. (They definitely sell some good stuff though, so I hope they remove the crap so they can be supported).

So what's the benefit of the glue in over the 5 piece even if you can core drill it with a water cooling rig in 5 min? You are still spending a lot more money on glue, bolts, time, lugging water out for your drill.

I'm still not seeing where/how that's a better process then the wrench and modified screw driver need to replace the 5 piece, even over a 150 year process. Is the longevity that much of a benefit? Honestly, I've not had to replace any 5 pieces so maybe that's the problem?

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In my experience core drilling can be pretty unwieldy. The bits we found are too short for many of the bolts and the diamond cutter heads break off if you even wobble the drill. That's not to say it is impossible - I just couldn't find a practical way of making it work for me.

ACE looked at all the options and we came to the consensus that a 1/2" stainless 5-piece bolt is a pretty good solution. Removing a 1/2" PowerBolt is pretty quick and easy and we have had 100% success in getting plated ones out and re-using the holes. With studs our hole re-use is now about 80%, but there is a learning curve on successfully removing studs. 3/8" Rawls almost always can be removed, but they take the most effort. The sleeves are so thin that once they rust they tear apart when you try to pull them out. You end up removing the sleeve portion about a 1/4" chunk at a time and it can take 20 minutes or more to get all the metal out.

Morgan Patterson wrote: So what's the benefit of the glue in over the 5 piece even if you can core drill it with a water cooling rig in 5 min? You are still spending a lot more money on glue, bolts, time, lugging water out for your drill. I'm still not seeing where/how that's a better process then the wrench and modified screw driver need to replace the 5 piece, even over a 150 year process. Is the longevity that much of a benefit? Honestly, I've not had to replace any 5 pieces so maybe that's the problem? This vs

Replacing worn 5-Pieces is a PITA. I haven't done all that many honestly (5-10?) but EVERY single one of them was a lesson in frustration. While the method seems simple, execution is not. Typically:

You can unscrew the bolt shaft. You can probably pull the outer sleeve without too much issue (unless it breaks from corrosion). Then you get into the PITA parts. Getting the inner sleeve out is almost never easy and can take well north of 5 minutes (or 10 or never). If you do manage to snag it, then you have to re-thread the cone (not a gimme) and yank that sucker out which isn't always easy either.

People have come up with various ways to get the "innards" out - Taping the sleeve, using a hooked screw driver etc etc but they're all not simple...

While I haven't done a coring yet it's probably not as far off from a 5-piece as many think.

Having seen the new methods for pulling wedges I tend to go either Wedge or full on glue in, particularly given the cost of SS 5pieces. EDIT: My comments are only for 3/8in 5-Pieces. Per Greg above, the 1/2in SS look easier.

Gregger Man wrote:In my experience core drilling can be pretty unwieldy. The bits we found are too short for many of the bolts and the diamond cutter heads break off if you even wobble the drill. That's not to say it is impossible - I just couldn't find a practical way of making it work for me. ACE looked at all the options and we came to the consensus that a 1/2" stainless 5-piece bolt is a pretty good solution. Removing a 1/2" PowerBolt is pretty quick and easy and we have had 100% success in getting plated ones out and re-using the holes. With studs our hole re-use is now about 80%, but there is a learning curve on successfully removing studs. 3/8" Rawls almost always can be removed, but they take the most effort. The sleeves are so thin that once they rust they tear apart when you try to pull them out. You end up removing the sleeve portion about a 1/4" chunk at a time and it can take 20 minutes or more to get all the metal out.

We've started drilling out the old rusty Rawl sleeves with the normal rock bit on the Rotohammer. If it's too rusty to pull, and starts to crumble, we've found that it only takes about 3-5 min to drill out a 1/2" hole to the cone, and then you can either remove the cone, or just hammer it in further if you're using a shorter replacement bolt. I've even drilled out a 1/2" plated steel 5-piece bolt that had gotten fairly rusty and it was still faster than pulling the one next to it. Obviously this only works if you can use power drills...

Greg and Matt - very much appreciate the input.

Greg - you cite about an 80% success with the wedge bolts... What has been the mode of failure? Stripping threads or damaging hole beyond use when pulling?

Morgan Patterson wrote: Greg - you cite about an 80% success with the wedge bolts... What has been the mode of failure? Stripping threads or damaging hole beyond use when pulling?

Not sure about Greg, but in my experience, the failure mode is having the stud break off while trying to pull it. This isn't a huge issue because you just patch the hole and re-drill, but it's obviously not sustainable for many rebolting efforts.

WarthogARJ wrote:Hi Eli, Thanks for the link. I'll need to ask to be Friended I think. It didn't let me in initially. But no big deal, I'll do that. I'm going to contact Fixe for more information. When we hear more I shall post it on this forum. The people who were really on the ball with this were the German Climbing Federation (the DAV). The have a permanent staff that looks after issues like this: very efficient. And it's made possible because the DAV has 500,000 members!!! Amazing, hey? But you really get a good deal by joining the DAV. However in a plug for the other federations (American Alpine Club etc) it really helps to join them. or the Access Fund. Or the ASCA. Donate etc. Alan

Im part of the climbing community here in the island and from what we talked about the break was that it failed on body weight while rapping down. It broke between the bolt and the last
chain and its was welded by the manufacturers.

Not sure if you had your question answerd since the thread has gone for so long now but if there are any other question feel free to ask me.

Re: stud removal- probably better to move this to its own thread, but the failure is almost always a break at the skinny portion near the wedge.
Rusty ones can be pulled without spinning them since the collar is immobile. The bolt is asleep. Sometimes it wakes up and binds right at the lip of the hole. Spinning it will damage its ability to bind while simultaneously making the skinny portion more fragile. It's never a guarantee that you'll get it out of the hole.

So does anyone know of a better deal for 3/8" SS 5 pieces 3.5" or longer?

50 bolts for $200...

fastenmsc.com/p-99688-power…

FastenMSC has the best prices on bolts that I've found.

Resurrecting the old thread to post latest update: https://www.theuiaa.org/mountaineering/safety-alert-for-fixe-lower-offs/?fbclid=IwAR3E99aqs_0XWnpNpBTSl6xzJaKEUmoTjRWuGg2dFmjXNLhZfbINt9c-QAM

More info in this thread, but it has a nondescript thread title and is unlikely to be seen by most climbers searching for the topic: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/115885530/if-you-are-interested#ForumMessage-115959890