fixe chains breaking and cracks
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Availability and price of 316 anchors: |
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Maybe I wasn't clear enough. |
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I'm also not sure that a 50 year life is always the right choice. |
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WarthogARJ wrote:....WHY PLAN ON HAVING TO REMOVE THEM???? I mean use an anchor that lasts at least 50 years.Because shit happens. Rockfall or ice smash bolts, holds break, changing the line of a climb, and even the best of us occasionally make mistakes and in hindsight find bolt locations are better elsewhere, or even vandalism. We have all seen plenty of evidence that many of us simply are not very good at bolting or don't have the discipline to not get too excited and bolt every square foot and possible variation on a crag because it is there. We may come to our senses later or the community may want clean up the abortion. If we can simply pop the old bolt out and replace it or patch the hole, that is a lot better than having to grind and core drill. |
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WarthogARJ wrote:WHY PLAN ON HAVING TO REMOVE THEM????Because 50 years is not a very long period of time even for climbing. I fully expect climbing to be popular 50 years from now and suddenly we have the same problem all over again. Perhaps it would be wise to think of climbs as permenent objects which need maintanence to keep them safe and usable. Then start talking about what the maintanence cycle should look like. |
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The more I think about this the more I think that I would strongly prefer an easily removable/replaceable bolt with a shorter lifespan than a difficult to remove/replace bolt with a longer lifespan. By easily replaceable I think I mean that it is so easy and reliable that bringing a drill would not be considered necessary. I would think a 20 year life with easy replacement is almost a no brainer over a 50 year life with difficult to impossible to replacement. |
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The cheapest 316 option available for climbing in the USA is the Wave Bolt. The "original" Wave Bolt uses 316, although I dont know if the Climb Tech version does, you would have to ask. Aside from that, all other options are as expensive as titanium, so it makes more sense to just go with titanium. However, Ti is about 2x as expensive as 304. |
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20 kN wrote:The cheapest 316 option available for climbing in the USA is the Wave Bolt. The "original" Wave Bolt uses 316, although I dont know if the Climb Tech version does, you would have to ask. Aside from that, all other options are as expensive as titanium, so it makes more sense to just go with titanium. However, Ti is about 2x as expensive as 304.I think I heard somewhere that climb tech changed to 304 for the wave bolt. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I remember seeing it somewhere. Hopefully climb tech can chime in and let us know. |
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climber pat wrote:The more I think about this the more I think that I would strongly prefer an easily removable/replaceable bolt with a shorter lifespan than a difficult to remove/replace bolt with a longer lifespan. By easily replaceable I think I mean that it is so easy and reliable that bringing a drill would not be considered necessary.This is what I'm going for using 4" 5 piece bolts. Unscrew bolt, pull sleeve, remove hanger, put new hanger on new 3.75" bolt, hammer in and torque, done. That's your 20 year replacement plan vs Glue ins require ripping and core drilling or blowtorching and working the bolt out with pry bar etc and are super time intensive on both the setting and removing end. They look nicer, are more tamper resistant, and probably last a long time too even the beefy zinc plated ones but, I like the middle ground of the 5 piece.. easy, clean, and the holes I'm drilling (the most destructive part of this endavor) are going to be able to be used for generations of climbers. |
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The cheapest all 316 option available in the USA is Wedge bolts and Petzl hangers which are 316 according to Greg Barnes posts on the Taco. I tried to use a 316 Hilti KB3 and Petzl hanger in rock that seemed to get a little more moisture. |
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At least here in New England (NE USA), where I am most familiar and new route, I bet those 304 SS Powers 5 pc bolts will last a lot longer than 20 years. 3/8" ones that I placed that long ago, before I moved to glue-ins and 1/2" 5 pc look brand new (inside too) |
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Question: |
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M Sprague wrote:At least here in New England (NE USA), where I am most familiar and new route, I bet those 304 SS Powers 5 pc bolts will last a lot longer than 20 years. 3/8" ones that I placed that long ago, before I moved to glue-ins and 1/2" 5 pc look brand new (inside too)yep, that's my thought too. I regularly whip on 25 to 30 year old plated bolts (in UT, so dry), so I'm pretty sure that there would be no problem getting 50 years out of a 304 bolt (which is what I bolt with). |
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I put this together to help me be clear on options. It's basically a thought process, not a proposal. Here is the grainger (maybe cheaper elsewhere) prices on using 316 threaded rod. |
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eli poss wrote:Question: Would using a Ti ring or quicklink connected to plated or stainless chains or hangers cause galvanic corrosion? After looking at Titan's website, I'm considering using either their rings or quicklinks next time I have to replace some worn quicklinks/rap rings because it sounds like they don't wear.The answer is both yes and no, technically, Ti is more noble than stainless or plated steel, so in theory it would cause the steel parts to corrode faster. In reality, the potential difference between Ti and SS is very small (as in it won't do much), and the main thing that climbers always forget is that for galvanic corrosion to take place there must be an electrolyte between the two metals. This means that for galvanic corrosion to take place it has to be wet between the two parts which is a very limited amount of time in most climbing applications, especially between a bolt hanger and a quicklink, or a quicklink and a ring. Basically, what I am saying is that there is no reason to worry about galvanic corrosion in 99% of all climbing situations. |
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Glued Threaded rod is outdated and a poor choice. There's a reason the newer Glue In designs have taken over in popularity. |
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mattm wrote:Glued Threaded rod is outdated and a poor choice. There's a reason the newer Glue In designs have taken over in popularity. 316SS Hilti KB# plus 316SS Hanger = ~$6 Wave Bolt = $6.25US retail (likely less in bulk) JimT's Bolts in 316SS = $4.25US (I think you can even drop the VAT for a lower cost but then there's transport...) Jim's DuPlex Seawater bolts start at $10.00 Titan's Ti Bolts start at $12.30USSo why is this even an issue? Unless we're talking bolting on lead, glue ins are easy enough (not easier but rather simple) to place, stronger, more durable, and cheaper in 316 than all but the cheapest options. So 3/8 studs with the cheapest hanger are cheaper. Or untested off brand sleeve anchors and cheap hangers. A Powers SS plus a SS hanger in 304 is $5-7 for bolt and $3 for hanger. How is this even a conversation anymore? Glue ins all day every day. For longevity and the budget. |
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highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: So why is this even an issue? Unless we're talking bolting on lead, glue ins are easy enough (not easier but rather simple) to place, stronger, more durable, and cheaper in 316 than all but the cheapest options. So 3/8 studs with the cheapest hanger are cheaper. Or untested off brand sleeve anchors and cheap hangers. A Powers SS plus a SS hanger in 304 is $5-7 for bolt and $3 for hanger. How is this even a conversation anymore? Glue ins all day every day. For longevity and the budget.I love glue-ins when appropriate and done well, but I cringe at any old hack spraying them in. |
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M Sprague wrote: I love glue-ins when appropriate and done well, but I cringe at any old hack spraying them in.So I've only placde a couple dozen of them myself, I used Jim's bolts. With what I saw, they would be better than expansion bolts for a hack, maybe I am that hack. As long as you clean the hole well and use enough glue, you're pretty much perfect. This was prior to his and wave bolt new design that gives you some degree of strength without glue so you only needed a drill bit that was pretty close, IE, standard vs metric doesn't matter, just fill the rest with glue. Jeez, even if you hit an air pocket, you could pump it full and still use that hole. Try that with an expansion bolt. I used Jim biggest bolts, 150mm to 200mm and all 16mm (5/8") in 316. Even those weren't that expensive. I can't recall the price but it wasn't bad at all. At this point in the game, even a thousand miles inland, I'd probably use glue ins for major development. I do like expansion bolts for anchor repair since I'll often only replace one or two at a time and I don't like an opened tube of glue long than a few weeks (no idea what the actual spec'd time limit is on this). |
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I was thinking more in terms of the actual decision of what lines to bolt, inane grid bolted variations and bolt location. |