fixe chains breaking and cracks

Availability and price of 316 anchors:
Theres' a BIG range of anchors made in 304 and 316.
ANYTHING that is made in one can be made in the other.

We're looking into a reasonably priced source of 316 anchors; 5 piece, 6 piece, 4 piece.
Whatever there is a good demand for.

I don't bolt in the USA, but I understand that people like the 5-piece anchors because they are easier to remove.
Well.....WHY PLAN ON HAVING TO REMOVE THEM????

I mean use an anchor that lasts at least 50 years.
After that, well I'm not so sure ANY anchor will come to easily.
There will be some deformation, minor corrosion etc etc.
It's something we need to look into.

But as I showed, if you can make a 304 anchor, then you can make a 316 one for not much more.
BUT you DO need enough volume to get a reasonable price on material.

So if you are only bolting a few routes, might be hard.

But why not organize donations from climbers to the Access Fund, or ASCA, and request they be earmarked for your area??
And THEY can make a big enough order to get what you want.

My argument would be if you cannot drum up the support, maybe that route shouldn't be bolted. Maybe leave it a bit for someone who can do it right?

As I said, "Thou shalt bolt" is NOT something Moses got told by the Christian God.

This is for expansion bolts.

It is EASY to make glue-ins out of whatever you want. If you want a guaranteed 50 year (maybe 100 year) consider titanium. Sure it's overkill in many spots: but it WILL last.

We understand that there's not a reasonably priced supply of 316 anchos in North America. We'll see what we can do to help solve that.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

But I was explaining that any big price differentia for 316 over 304v in North America is NOT because of the MATERIAL cost itself. I already explained why that does NOT affect the final price by much.

It's because the big players for construction anchor use 304. And thus not much 316 is brought in. And because volume is MUCH less, price (and supply) is BAD.

But these types of anchors are SIMPLE. If Hilti or whoever won't bring in at reasonable price then can get from elsewhere. We'll look into that.

It STILL needs to have good QA, but that that's part of the price.

I'm also not sure that a 50 year life is always the right choice.

Ok, sure, if you're bolting at a major established destination, say The Red River gorge, or the New, or similar, you can expect that likely people will be climbing there 50 years from now. So, a 50+ year life span makes sense. Especially if you're re-bolting something -- that says it has been climbed long enough to need this, so likely will need a longer life.

Me, I'm bolting at a crag that I'm developing from scratch. It is a bit out of the way, and it will never be a destination crag, but at best a local climbing spot. Over the last three years, exactly 3 people have been there, and for just one day, that didn't go there with me. (And, I haven't kept it secret -- I tell people about it, I document routes, and the approach on thecrag.com.) I'm in my late 40s, if/when I stop climbing, will anyone go to this crag? I don't know. I hope so, but I don't know. Given the local cost of 316 vs 304 (yeah, you can argue all you want about what the cost SHOULD be, I'm looking at what the cost is), and given that a 20 year lifespan looks pretty reasonable to me right now, I think using 304 stainless is reasonable. If my little crag becomes popular enough that I expect it will still be climbed well past the end of my climbing career, I will look at switching hardware for any further development I do.

(I'm pretty sure the Fixe hangers I'm getting from MEC, the only local supplier I know of that carries climbing hangers, are 304 as well. So even if I went 316 on my bolts, I wouldn't have access to 316 hangers locally. And ordering stuff cross-border really bumps costs.)

WarthogARJ wrote:....WHY PLAN ON HAVING TO REMOVE THEM???? I mean use an anchor that lasts at least 50 years.

Because shit happens. Rockfall or ice smash bolts, holds break, changing the line of a climb, and even the best of us occasionally make mistakes and in hindsight find bolt locations are better elsewhere, or even vandalism. We have all seen plenty of evidence that many of us simply are not very good at bolting or don't have the discipline to not get too excited and bolt every square foot and possible variation on a crag because it is there. We may come to our senses later or the community may want clean up the abortion. If we can simply pop the old bolt out and replace it or patch the hole, that is a lot better than having to grind and core drill.

WarthogARJ wrote:WHY PLAN ON HAVING TO REMOVE THEM????

Because 50 years is not a very long period of time even for climbing. I fully expect climbing to be popular 50 years from now and suddenly we have the same problem all over again.

Perhaps it would be wise to think of climbs as permenent objects which need maintanence to keep them safe and usable. Then start talking about what the maintanence cycle should look like.

The more I think about this the more I think that I would strongly prefer an easily removable/replaceable bolt with a shorter lifespan than a difficult to remove/replace bolt with a longer lifespan. By easily replaceable I think I mean that it is so easy and reliable that bringing a drill would not be considered necessary. I would think a 20 year life with easy replacement is almost a no brainer over a 50 year life with difficult to impossible to replacement.

Also I am not seeing a lot of 316 SS bolts/hangers/anchors in my google search even from europe. The climbing community could ride the coattails of the construction industry if the construction industry moved to 316 SS; ordering bolts from Europe is realistic(I order bike parts from Europe). However the hangers and anchors will always be small time production relative to construction bolts production. Therefore hangers and anchors made of 316 will more expensive than hangers and anchors made from easier to machine materials. We can argue about the price difference of raw materials all day long; I am going with what the current retail price difference of the final product. I do not have the capability to buy raw stock and turn it into bolts, hangers, and anchors.

Of course I would love my cake and eat it too. I would be great if I could get 50 - 1000 year life with easy installation and replacement at a reasonable cost and 0 defects.

The cheapest 316 option available for climbing in the USA is the Wave Bolt. The "original" Wave Bolt uses 316, although I dont know if the Climb Tech version does, you would have to ask. Aside from that, all other options are as expensive as titanium, so it makes more sense to just go with titanium. However, Ti is about 2x as expensive as 304.

20 kN wrote:The cheapest 316 option available for climbing in the USA is the Wave Bolt. The "original" Wave Bolt uses 316, although I dont know if the Climb Tech version does, you would have to ask. Aside from that, all other options are as expensive as titanium, so it makes more sense to just go with titanium. However, Ti is about 2x as expensive as 304.

I think I heard somewhere that climb tech changed to 304 for the wave bolt. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I remember seeing it somewhere. Hopefully climb tech can chime in and let us know.

climber pat wrote:The more I think about this the more I think that I would strongly prefer an easily removable/replaceable bolt with a shorter lifespan than a difficult to remove/replace bolt with a longer lifespan. By easily replaceable I think I mean that it is so easy and reliable that bringing a drill would not be considered necessary.

This is what I'm going for using 4" 5 piece bolts. Unscrew bolt, pull sleeve, remove hanger, put new hanger on new 3.75" bolt, hammer in and torque, done. That's your 20 year replacement plan

vs

Glue ins require ripping and core drilling or blowtorching and working the bolt out with pry bar etc and are super time intensive on both the setting and removing end. They look nicer, are more tamper resistant, and probably last a long time too even the beefy zinc plated ones but, I like the middle ground of the 5 piece.. easy, clean, and the holes I'm drilling (the most destructive part of this endavor) are going to be able to be used for generations of climbers.

The cheapest all 316 option available in the USA is Wedge bolts and Petzl hangers which are 316 according to Greg Barnes posts on the Taco. I tried to use a 316 Hilti KB3 and Petzl hanger in rock that seemed to get a little more moisture.

AFAIK, Wave Bolts are currently 304SS from Climb Tech. I too was bummed they switched from 304.

IMO, it's best to try and use the absolute LONGEST lasting material / bolt in all but rare circumstances. No matter how easy a bolt is to replace it is still A) a pain in the ass and takes considerable man hours to accomplish B) Actually requires humans to care for it which is a TINY, MINUSCULE % of the climbing population.

The combination of A +B above means that even if that 5 piece in 304SS is "not bad" to replace in 20 years it will still be an issue. I'm not naive and realize that all hardware will require maintenance but the less the better. The exception to this are areas that will likely have continuous local involvement and care or places where a dedicated route maintenance program exists (DAV etc). OR areas where physical damage or wear (not corrosion) will likely cause the EOL of the bolt before weathering etc. The ASCA does this with PS bolts on high use wall anchors etc. Same concept for Mussy Hooks.

The above is the reason I would often choose 316SS Studs or Glue Ins vs a "lesser" bolt.

At least here in New England (NE USA), where I am most familiar and new route, I bet those 304 SS Powers 5 pc bolts will last a lot longer than 20 years. 3/8" ones that I placed that long ago, before I moved to glue-ins and 1/2" 5 pc look brand new (inside too)

Question:
Would using a Ti ring or quicklink connected to plated or stainless chains or hangers cause galvanic corrosion? After looking at Titan's website, I'm considering using either their rings or quicklinks next time I have to replace some worn quicklinks/rap rings because it sounds like they don't wear.

M Sprague wrote:At least here in New England (NE USA), where I am most familiar and new route, I bet those 304 SS Powers 5 pc bolts will last a lot longer than 20 years. 3/8" ones that I placed that long ago, before I moved to glue-ins and 1/2" 5 pc look brand new (inside too)

yep, that's my thought too. I regularly whip on 25 to 30 year old plated bolts (in UT, so dry), so I'm pretty sure that there would be no problem getting 50 years out of a 304 bolt (which is what I bolt with).

I put this together to help me be clear on options. It's basically a thought process, not a proposal. Here is the grainger (maybe cheaper elsewhere) prices on using 316 threaded rod.

Here's what I found.

6 feet of 1/2" threaded rod, 316

316 Nuts

Fixe 316 Hanger

For the 6' rod, that's 18 four inch bolts, really 16 or 17 when you count for cutting and inevitably messing one up. So, the rod is $1.67 per 4" bolt.

Plus

$.29 per nut for 316. (Approx, I actually didn't find the exact nut match in my 20 second search).

Plus

$6.35 for a Fixe 316 hanger. Are there other options out there?

So, we're at $8.30 per bolt. Only a wee bit cheaper than a wave bolt, if they are still 316.

Approximately the same as a wave bolt with a lot more prep work. I didn't count glue cost because the Wave also takes glue. Should I have counted angle grinder cost and time?

Pro's to doing it this way

-No waiting for the climbing world to step up.
-Would get extremely cheap if another viable 316 hanger option comes up.
-Replaceable hanger

Con's vs wave bolt.

-Trickier placement and more finicky until the glue hardens
-More DIY time
-Would not work on overhang without duct-tape trickery

Other thoughts

A piece of threaded rod would be easier to remove. Propane torch + vice grips. The wave would require that and a prybar and/or hammer.

Proper prep of threaded rod would be fairly variable among users.

Americans don't like glue, this would be a tough sell over mechanical bolts.

eli poss wrote:Question: Would using a Ti ring or quicklink connected to plated or stainless chains or hangers cause galvanic corrosion? After looking at Titan's website, I'm considering using either their rings or quicklinks next time I have to replace some worn quicklinks/rap rings because it sounds like they don't wear.

The answer is both yes and no, technically, Ti is more noble than stainless or plated steel, so in theory it would cause the steel parts to corrode faster. In reality, the potential difference between Ti and SS is very small (as in it won't do much), and the main thing that climbers always forget is that for galvanic corrosion to take place there must be an electrolyte between the two metals. This means that for galvanic corrosion to take place it has to be wet between the two parts which is a very limited amount of time in most climbing applications, especially between a bolt hanger and a quicklink, or a quicklink and a ring.

Basically, what I am saying is that there is no reason to worry about galvanic corrosion in 99% of all climbing situations.

Glued Threaded rod is outdated and a poor choice. There's a reason the newer Glue In designs have taken over in popularity.

316SS Hilti KB# plus 316SS Hanger = ~$6

Wave Bolt = $6.25US retail (likely less in bulk)

JimT's Bolts in 316SS = $4.25US (I think you can even drop the VAT for a lower cost but then there's transport...)

Jim's DuPlex Seawater bolts start at $10.00

Titan's Ti Bolts start at $12.30US

mattm wrote:Glued Threaded rod is outdated and a poor choice. There's a reason the newer Glue In designs have taken over in popularity. 316SS Hilti KB# plus 316SS Hanger = ~$6 Wave Bolt = $6.25US retail (likely less in bulk) JimT's Bolts in 316SS = $4.25US (I think you can even drop the VAT for a lower cost but then there's transport...) Jim's DuPlex Seawater bolts start at $10.00 Titan's Ti Bolts start at $12.30US

So why is this even an issue? Unless we're talking bolting on lead, glue ins are easy enough (not easier but rather simple) to place, stronger, more durable, and cheaper in 316 than all but the cheapest options.

So 3/8 studs with the cheapest hanger are cheaper. Or untested off brand sleeve anchors and cheap hangers.

A Powers SS plus a SS hanger in 304 is $5-7 for bolt and $3 for hanger.

How is this even a conversation anymore? Glue ins all day every day. For longevity and the budget.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: So why is this even an issue? Unless we're talking bolting on lead, glue ins are easy enough (not easier but rather simple) to place, stronger, more durable, and cheaper in 316 than all but the cheapest options. So 3/8 studs with the cheapest hanger are cheaper. Or untested off brand sleeve anchors and cheap hangers. A Powers SS plus a SS hanger in 304 is $5-7 for bolt and $3 for hanger. How is this even a conversation anymore? Glue ins all day every day. For longevity and the budget.

I love glue-ins when appropriate and done well, but I cringe at any old hack spraying them in.

M Sprague wrote: I love glue-ins when appropriate and done well, but I cringe at any old hack spraying them in.

So I've only placde a couple dozen of them myself, I used Jim's bolts.

With what I saw, they would be better than expansion bolts for a hack, maybe I am that hack.

As long as you clean the hole well and use enough glue, you're pretty much perfect.

This was prior to his and wave bolt new design that gives you some degree of strength without glue so you only needed a drill bit that was pretty close, IE, standard vs metric doesn't matter, just fill the rest with glue.

Jeez, even if you hit an air pocket, you could pump it full and still use that hole. Try that with an expansion bolt.

I used Jim biggest bolts, 150mm to 200mm and all 16mm (5/8") in 316. Even those weren't that expensive. I can't recall the price but it wasn't bad at all.

At this point in the game, even a thousand miles inland, I'd probably use glue ins for major development.

I do like expansion bolts for anchor repair since I'll often only replace one or two at a time and I don't like an opened tube of glue long than a few weeks (no idea what the actual spec'd time limit is on this).

I was thinking more in terms of the actual decision of what lines to bolt, inane grid bolted variations and bolt location.