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fixe chains breaking and cracks

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347

Climb trad, problem solved!

Jk, I like sport too.

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
WarthogARJ wrote: But in Europe if someone uses 304 for climbing anchors NOW they are an idiot. And close to being negligent. Perhaps criminally negligent if there's an accident as a result of its lesser corrosion resistance: it is VERY well known that 304 is not a suitable material for anchors in outdoor locations in Europe. I will stand as a witness pro bono except costs if anyone wants help if they are hurt by a 304 failure in Europe. Alan
I would suggest that calling installers "idiots" for using certified equipment carrying the UIAA Safety Label and conforming to all the requirements ever issued by the UIAA in the various revisions of the standard is incompatible with a role in the UIAA. The term "idiots" would include numerous national federations, the members of the UIAA Safety Commision and the General Council who either install this equipment themselves or approved it´s certification.

Furthermore suggesting that the use of this equipment may be criminally negligent and offering to support and assist legal action against members of the climbing community is utterly irreconcileable with acting as a national representative at the UIAA.
Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
WarthogARJ wrote: even if you use a "slave labour" concept and expect the bolter to work for free, that further dilutes the difference. And if you cost their time at minimum wage ($15/hour in USA) then the percent difference basically disappears.
So you Euros pay your bolters at least $15/hour? Who is paying them?
Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
20 kN wrote: Yes, it's acceptable because those 1 or 2 out of 1,000 are not complete equipment failures, they are failures to meet the 3-sigma rating. If the 3-sigma rating of a bolt is 25kN, a sample that falls outside of that range is still very likely going to hold 20kN or more. While that's lower than the rating, it's still almost twice the strength of a full size cam and more than adequate to catch any whipper anytime.
Also you shouldn't be relying on just one bolt to keep you off the ground...
Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
Jim Titt wrote: I would suggest that calling installers "idiots" for using certified equipment carrying the UIAA Safety Label and conforming to all the requirements ever issued by the UIAA in the various revisions of the standard is incompatible with a role in the UIAA. The term "idiots" would include numerous national federations, the members of the UIAA Safety Commision and the General Council who either install this equipment themselves or approved it´s certification. Furthermore suggesting that the use of this equipment may be criminally negligent and offering to support and assist legal action against members of the climbing community is utterly irreconcileable with acting as a national representative at the UIAA.
It does seem kind of crazy that the guy who helps create the standards says he will help sue if you get hurt using something that meets the standards.

If 304 is soo bad, why not change the standards?
climber pat · · Las Cruces NM · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 286

We often depend upon a single bolt to prevent injury and potentually death. At least the first bolt of a climb and often the first 2-3 bolts of a climb at spaced such that blowing the clip of the next bolt will result in a ground fall if the previous bolt fails. I wish people would quit saying that they never depend upon a single piece; it simply is not true.

David Gibbs · · Ottawa, ON · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2

I keep seeing 20-30% more for 316 over 304. Maybe the case if ordering bolts in Europe, but I took a quick look at Hilti site (for Canada):

50 SS 304 3/8"x3" - $245
50 SS 316 3/8"x3" - $640

That's a pretty big price difference.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
Harald Swen wrote:I'm offering the best bolts money can buy for free, no strings attached. But nobody's interested.
Did I miss something?

I'd love about 100 SS bolts... got a post up right now looking for some!
Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
David Gibbs wrote:I keep seeing 20-30% more for 316 over 304. Maybe the case if ordering bolts in Europe, but I took a quick look at Hilti site (for Canada): 50 SS 304 3/8"x3" - $245 50 SS 316 3/8"x3" - $640 That's a pretty big price difference.
Maybe he just missed a 0... 30% versus %300?
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

50 SS 304 3/8"x3.5" - $199!!!

fastenmsc.com/p-99688-power…

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
dnoB ekiM wrote: FYI: 12 LB torque on those. Pretty easy to over torque the 3/8's Stainless Powers.
I was told 25-40lbs of torque for those SS ones. Helps ensure they don't slip out of the crack.
David Gibbs · · Ottawa, ON · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2
Morgan Patterson wrote:50 SS 304 3/8"x3.5" - $199!!! fastenmsc.com/p-99688-power…
Given that appears to be a US site, and with a 1.3 exchange rate, $200 us -> $260 CDN. Not a better price than what I quoted from the Hilti site.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
dnoB ekiM wrote: I've been trolled.
I know my way around the block...
Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419

For sure, that map of the vast area affected by high corrosive atmosphere is eye opening.
From the Mason Dixon line to the far side of Ohio past the G. lakes and up north too.

You know I know you know your way around the block
Phoenix!!

Hey, again, Sorry for the thread drift.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
David Gibbs wrote: Given that appears to be a US site, and with a 1.3 exchange rate, $200 us -> $260 CDN. Not a better price than what I quoted from the Hilti site.
Gibbs... you're throwing Canadia curve balls with that exchange rate speak!
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
David Gibbs wrote:I keep seeing 20-30% more for 316 over 304. Maybe the case if ordering bolts in Europe, but I took a quick look at Hilti site (for Canada): 50 SS 304 3/8"x3" - $245 50 SS 316 3/8"x3" - $640 That's a pretty big price difference.
As of last week the price difference for 10mm round stock was +21.7% for 316 over 304. Depending on how the product is manufactured the end premium can be between 5% to 30% for simple objects or considerably more as I stated above.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

Do they even make 5 piece bolts in 316?

M Hanna · · Seattle, WA · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 5

"The failure analysis as done by a 3rd party metallurgical company in Spain: it wasn't done in house.

You are correct, it hasn't been given complete public distribution, but these sorts of reports are not written for the general public, and are not always so easy to understand. But I can ask them if they all release it for those who would like to read it. "

Alan-

I would be very interested in getting a copy of any third party metallurgical assessment that was performed in relation to the DAV report and subsequent TechRock summary document.

Mark Hanna

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Morgan Patterson wrote:Do they even make 5 piece bolts in 316?
No.
WarthogARJ · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 45

Hi,
Good discussion.

I might miss some of the questions/points, but let's have a go now:
(1) Fixed Design life
Once you decide that you WILL go for a fixed design life, the next question is how long?
And it quickly makes it almost impossible to have a logical discussion unless you DO have a fixed working life, regardless of how long: 10 years, 20, 50, 100.
WITHOUT a fixed life how can you seriously compare which bolt is better?
You cannot.
In essence the CHEAPEST is best.
Even if it only last 2 years.

(2) 50 Years
We haven't re-invented the wheel here.
And please do the homework thang.
Go look up the things I mentioned if anyones' not really up to to speed on them.
It's too difficult to write huge emails to explain the background.

We need to have a FAQ to refer to.
It's on the "list to do".

But since it's a critical point, let's explain why we suggest 50.
EOTA uses 50 for safety critical anchors in applications where it's not easy to replace, and where failures causes serious financial loss and/or human death/injury.
That's for concrete.
As long as you choose solid rock, you can get 50 years.

So what affects anchor life?
Fatigue: the anchors, resin (if used) and rock won't suffer from the loading cycles in a climbing application (except for very soft rock, but that's another mechanism)
Environmental degradation (corrosion/SCC): if you get a resistant enough material, you can achieve this
Wear: this is what kills anchors: pulling rope thru etc etc. If you use good technique they can last 50 years, maybe longer
Resin: we haven't done enough work on this yet, but the construction industry has. They have resins that will last 50 years in concrete. We're working on the climbing end, but it seems likely we can do the same in rock (variable as it is)

Let me stop this now.

If anyone thinks there a problem with this, fire away.
We're not doing anything difficult here: th construction industry regularly builds structures that will last 50 years or more.
Our problem is that many of the people bolting don't use the right anchors, or the right technique. And we don't have any 3rd party inspection.
In fact people who bolt routes get really uptight if someone tries to upgrade poor bolts.

My feeling is that if you are not willing to bolt for 50 years then don't bolt. All you are doing is screwing up the rock face. God (or whoever your deity is) did NOT say "Thou shalt bolt!".

Maybe we should ask the Mountain Project moderators to put out a survey on how much people who climb bolted routes have donated to pay for bolts.

We sympathize with blotters: if you don't get much money from the rest of climbers, but people are keen to climb, i can see the pressure to try to do as cheaply as possible. But maybe it's better to say, "Hey, we need more money to do it right". Put up signs on the cliffs about where to donate. Put up a collection box. Even charge admission. But don't put up crap bolts.

Alan

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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