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Backing up a rappel against a rope-cutting event or anchor failure

Original Post
jktinst · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 55

A recent thread on tagline rappels prompted me to reflect (again) on the risks associated with rope-cutting events. Obviously, these are critical in all climbing situations but are of particular concern for rappelling situations where you spend a good deal of time hanging on the rope and it spends a good deal of time sitting in the same place and possibly rubbing against the same sharp feature. Up until now, I (along with many others , I'm sure) always considered the rope(s) getting cut during a rappel one of those very low probability risks (provided I was careful with sharp edges along my rappel line) that could not really be avoided if rappelling was necessary. However, over the past few days, this reflection has led me to revise my position on the unavoidability of this risk.

The first consideration was the possibility of using the biner block to join double or twin ropes (in addition to the more usual joining of a rope and a skinnier tagline). This would be a mre fail-proof back-up than the simple knot to prevent a catastrophic failure in the event of the pull-down rope getting cut. However, the biner block also makes a snag or a jam more likely when pulling down the rappel so I wouldn't be keen on using this approach on all rappels, especially now that I've thought through the second approach (below). For the joining of the two ropes, I'll probably simply start paying more attention to making sure that the knot is very unlikely to be able to slip through the anchor (knowing that there can be surprises there).

The second approach is basically a self-arrest. It would provide a back-up against cutting of either or both ropes, as well as against anchor failure. It involves the first partner being lowered down the rappel route, placing pros along the way and anchoring the ropes at the bottom. The second partner can rappel down collecting the pros. If the top rappel anchor fails or the ropes get cut, the second partner must self-arrest using his ATC and autoblocking hitch back-up in order to arrest his own fall on the next pro down.

With this approach, the first partner is probably at greater risk than the second from a rope-cutting event. However, it would have to be a pretty severe event, cutting both ropes, to be catastrophic and the continually moving ropes are somewhat less likely to get severed. He can also use his pro placements to keep the rope away from features of concern. Finally, he could be tied to both ropes but actually held on one only, leaving the other one slack; and whenever he is being lowered (ie, when he's not placing pro), he could hold the slack rope away from himself to reduce somewhat the risk that a rope-cutting event might sever both ropes. I know, that would look a bit goofy and provide at best a pretty marginal increment in safety since both ropes are clipped into the pros. However, I certainly would not want to multiply the number of pros to have two separate rope paths, much less to clip only one rope.

The following is a more detailed description of this approach.

- Assuming (and hoping) that there are some pro placement options along the rappel path, the first partner places and clips various pros along his descent.
- Once the descent is completed, the 2nd partner sets up the two ropes for the rappel.
- After setting up his own self-belay (if he hasn't yet reached the ground), the 1st partner secures the ropes to an upward-pull anchor (provided this can be done quickly) or threads them through his ATC with a mule-overhand block, leaving, in either case, just enough slack on them to avoid interfering with the second partner's rappel.
- The first partner should also provide a fireman’s belay to the 2nd.
- The 2nd partner rappels with one hand controlling both the brake strands and the back-up/third hand autoblocking hitch (clipped to his belay loop, not to his leg loop) and the other hand sliding along the loaded strands above the ATC, ready to self-arrest.
- Of course, the 2nd partner also collects the pros along the way.
- If things come undone above him, as he falls, the rope strands will switch roles: the former rappel brake strands will become the fall-arrest loaded strands and vice-versa.
- The falling climber should let go of the third hand and hold tight with both hands onto the fall-arrest brake strands.
- The initial arrest will actually be made by the autoblocking hitch, which, by then, will be positioned above the ATC. However, the force of the fall and arrest may blow or melt the cord so it's essential to have a tight grip on the fall-arrest brake strands as well.

Additional remarks :

- In this situation, the often-mentioned risk that the autoblocking hitch may fail to catch and tighten should not be an issue because, while the hitch remains in place (ie, as long as it hasn't blown or melted through), the falling climber's whole weight will be on it while the ATC wil l be sitting loose and unloaded just under it. If the hitch were to slide without grabbing, the ATC would bump up against it from below, causing it to cinch.

- Aiming for a relatively small number of pro placements, keeping them fairly centered around the rappel line and using only cams would keep to a minimum the added time cost of this approach compared to the classic rappel technique. I would definitely not do pendulums to reach placements further out since this would increase the risk of severing the rope(s).

- Gripping tightly the fall-arrest brake strands while falling and (presumably) getting banged up, is undoubtedly a tough proposition but I have not been able to come up with a way to ensure that the self-arrest cannot fail. It would have to be something simple involving the kind of gear found on a standard rack, as opposed to a complex rigging or special mechanical devices. If anyone can think of a good way to do this, I'd love to hear about it.

- Clearly, this was all written for the ATC. I'd be quite interested in getting feedback about how this would work with the various lock-assist belaying/rappelling devices currently on the market. What happens if the loaded and brake strands suddenly switch roles without switching positions in the device? Does the lock-assist function work anyway? Does it behave more like an ATC or does it do something else entirely?

When it comes to adopting this approach, I wouldn't bother using it for a single rappel starting from the top of a clean crag. I'd probably also forget about using it if I was in a major hurry to get down (approaching thunderstorm, etc.) but I would definitely apply it when facing multiple rappels and if I'm not in a desperate rush to get down. I don't seem to have much opportunity to do longer multipitches these days and am always keen to avoid rappelling if possible but I look forward to trying this at the next opportunity.

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

No, that's not too long. Not at all. :)

Bill Czajkowski · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 20
FrankPS wrote:No, that's not too long. Not at all. :)
Did he ask if it was too long? I didn't get very far.
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
jktinst wrote:A recent thread on tagline rappels prompted me to reflect (again) on the risks associated with rope-cutting events. Obviously, these are critical in all climbing situations but are of particular concern for rappelling situations where you spend a good deal of time hanging on the rope and it spends a good deal of time sitting in the same place and possibly rubbing against the same sharp feature. Up until now, I (along with many others , I'm sure) always considered the rope(s) getting cut during a rappel one of those very low probability risks (provided I was careful with sharp edges along my rappel line) that could not really be avoided if rappelling was necessary. However, over the past few days, this reflection has led me to revise my position on the unavoidability of this risk. The first consideration was the possibility of using the biner block to join double or twin ropes (in addition to the more usual joining of a rope and a skinnier tagline). This would be a mre fail-proof back-up than the simple knot to prevent a catastrophic failure in the event of the pull-down rope getting cut. However, the biner block also makes a snag or a jam more likely when pulling down the rappel so I wouldn't be keen on using this approach on all rappels, especially now that I've thought through the second approach (below). For the joining of the two ropes, I'll probably simply start paying more attention to making sure that the knot is very unlikely to be able to slip through the anchor (knowing that there can be surprises there). The second approach is basically a self-arrest. It would provide a back-up against cutting of either or both ropes, as well as against anchor failure. It involves the first partner being lowered down the rappel route, placing pros along the way and anchoring the ropes at the bottom. The second partner can rappel down collecting the pros. If the top rappel anchor fails or the ropes get cut, the second partner must self-arrest using his ATC and autoblocking hitch back-up in order to arrest his own fall on the next pro down. With this approach, the first partner is probably at greater risk than the second from a rope-cutting event. However, it would have to be a pretty severe event, cutting both ropes, to be catastrophic and the continually moving ropes are somewhat less likely to get severed. He can also use his pro placements to keep the rope away from features of concern. Finally, he could be tied to both ropes but actually held on one only, leaving the other one slack; and whenever he is being lowered (ie, when he's not placing pro), he could hold the slack rope away from himself to reduce somewhat the risk that a rope-cutting event might sever both ropes. I know, that would look a bit goofy and provide at best a pretty marginal increment in safety since both ropes are clipped into the pros. However, I certainly would not want to multiply the number of pros to have two separate rope paths, much less to clip only one rope. The following is a more detailed description of this approach. - Assuming (and hoping) that there are some pro placement options along the rappel path, the first partner places and clips various pros along his descent. - Once the descent is completed, the 2nd partner sets up the two ropes for the rappel. - After setting up his own self-belay (if he hasn't yet reached the ground), the 1st partner secures the ropes to an upward-pull anchor (provided this can be done quickly) or threads them through his ATC with a mule-overhand block, leaving, in either case, just enough slack on them to avoid interfering with the second partner's rappel. - The first partner should also provide a fireman’s belay to the 2nd. - The 2nd partner rappels with one hand controlling both the brake strands and the back-up/third hand autoblocking hitch (clipped to his belay loop, not to his leg loop) and the other hand sliding along the loaded strands above the ATC, ready to self-arrest. - Of course, the 2nd partner also collects the pros along the way. - If things come undone above him, as he falls, the rope strands will switch roles: the former rappel brake strands will become the fall-arrest loaded strands and vice-versa. - The falling climber should let go of the third hand and hold tight with both hands onto the fall-arrest brake strands. - The initial arrest will actually be made by the autoblocking hitch, which, by then, will be positioned above the ATC. However, the force of the fall and arrest may blow or melt the cord so it's essential to have a tight grip on the fall-arrest brake strands as well. Additional remarks : - In this situation, the often-mentioned risk that the autoblocking hitch may fail to catch and tighten should not be an issue because, while the hitch remains in place (ie, as long as it hasn't blown or melted through), the falling climber's whole weight will be on it while the ATC wil l be sitting loose and unloaded just under it. If the hitch were to slide without grabbing, the ATC would bump up against it from below, causing it to cinch. - Aiming for a relatively small number of pro placements, keeping them fairly centered around the rappel line and using only cams would keep to a minimum the added time cost of this approach compared to the classic rappel technique. I would definitely not do pendulums to reach placements further out since this would increase the risk of severing the rope(s). - Gripping tightly the fall-arrest brake strands while falling and (presumably) getting banged up, is undoubtedly a tough proposition but I have not been able to come up with a way to ensure that the self-arrest cannot fail. It would have to be something simple involving the kind of gear found on a standard rack, as opposed to a complex rigging or special mechanical devices. If anyone can think of a good way to do this, I'd love to hear about it. - Clearly, this was all written for the ATC. I'd be quite interested in getting feedback about how this would work with the various lock-assist belaying/rappelling devices currently on the market. What happens if the loaded and brake strands suddenly switch roles without switching positions in the device? Does the lock-assist function work anyway? Does it behave more like an ATC or does it do something else entirely? When it comes to adopting this approach, I wouldn't bother using it for a single rappel starting from the top of a clean crag. I'd probably also forget about using it if I was in a major hurry to get down (approaching thunderstorm, etc.) but I would definitely apply it when facing multiple rappels and if I'm not in a desperate rush to get down. I don't seem to have much opportunity to do longer multipitches these days and am always keen to avoid rappelling if possible but I look forward to trying this at the next opportunity.
Yep, those are all words. Good job.

You know, you don't actually have to climb. You can watch football, or play
underwater hockey or whatever.

If rapping is too much, dude, you don't have to do it. You can carve violins out of pencil lead.

So many things that aren't climbing.
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5

As a mental exercise, interesting to think about. In practice, sounds like a nightmare of a clusterfuck, even if it were effective.

If I'm understanding you correctly, the idea is that if the rope above was cut or the rap anchor failed, the climber would be caught by pro placed between him and the anchor his partner built below. The problem with that is the climber has no hard attachment to the rope, only his belay device. The brake hand, after the fall, would be above the belay device, and the only possible way I can imagine this person arresting their own fall was if they were to consciously switch to holding the other side of the rope and turn that into the brake strand. I am extremely dubious of this. I think it may have been RGold who posted in a thread about rappel back-ups about how one reason using a prussik above the belay device is a bad idea is that if they start to fall, they would need to release their grip on the prussik, but even for people that were expecting the fall and were prepared for what to do found it nearly impossible to fight instincts and let go. I think if your rope was cut you'd clamp down on your brake hand and that would not arrest your fall in this scenario.

Maybe, something like a Petzl ID or other truly autolocking descender device might work for this - I briefly played with one once, can't recall if it locks regardless of which direction the rope is pulled through abruptly...
far too heavy and expensive for most climbers to carry for raps.

Anyway, it sounds like to avoid a very low probability risk you are introducing a lot of elements to the system and a lot of opportunities for far more likely things to go wrong.

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847
jktinst wrote: I don't seem to have much opportunity to do longer multipitches these days
I wonder why.
Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419

Well okay then , I read it twice and all snark including the your gonna die comment,
You have overthought it and if you have that much time take up knitting,
We climb at considerable Risk ! That's the game.
Reduce The risk all you want - climb on three ropes
use a. Static Line that won't cut
A tree rope of 13 mil. Diameter
or a cable. See if. You do that
and turn the winch on . . .
then you can just lower off the bumper of your jeep thing.
Sheesh!
I mean if I thought that my gear was going to fail I would take up knitting too.
I climb on gear and ropes older than you, I'll bet.

I still use a rope that is a 40 year old Edelweiss extreme. It is a 9 mil. 150 foot that is still pristine.
It is light and just the ticket to do things in RMNP or a peak that has a short section that needs to be roped up for or rapped down.

The safest thing to think about and do is to be quick and efficient
Re introduction of gear (pros) on the way down insures a cluster-fuk.
It is easy to screw up all your (complex) ideas and take A Long time doing so.
That would increase the likelihood of a catastrophic failure.
Redundancy YES,but - Keep It Simple!
Check, double check and check everything thing twice.
Have your partner take the risks until you can handle your fears.
Tell the people you climb with to make sure they get your concerns.
Learn to rappel smoothly and swiftly do not bounce or 'Rambo' down the line.

Never pull out or up on the anchor before going over the edge,
you should have checked it first
There are a number of stories of fatalities caused by cut rope scenarios and of course the huge number of fatalities that occur while descending are worthy of note, and a cause to think hard about weather it is worth the risk to climbing more than one pitch, up and down, sling shot, top ropes.
Until, you can stomach the chance that all your gear and any redundancy that you have built into your safety system will not change the fact that you are still . . .

GONNA DIE! ,

RAPPEL, ON BELAY !

Jkinst,
Did you see this?

FOR SALE
For Sale: Golmud static/rescue/rappelling rope
Cong Wang
5 hours ago
You can see details and specification about this rope here:

ibuyla.com/product/13981224828...

It is a static rope and 70 meters long, 10.5mm in diameter.
I bought it with $70+ and only used it twice for climbing,
It is in a good condition. (Will Sell for) $50.

cragmantoo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 175

Sorry but I have an incredibly short attention span from too much media and too much time on internet. Can't read this

amarius · · Nowhere, OK · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 20

Even though I do no believe that probability of the rope cutting event is high enough, I like the proposed way of minimizing the risk.

Petzl has instructional diagram how minimize risk of cratering due to bad bolts while being lowered off a sport climb. I can not find the original, but here is link to it

EthanC · · Bay Area, CA · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 253

In the mountains, speed is often safety. Spending 3 or 4 times as long on your rappels leaves you more likely to get stuck out after dark or for something to go wrong.

If you are worried about anchor failure or rope cutting you can have the first person go down with a backup on the anchor and a knot tied in both ropes, that way if either gets cut, the first down will probably be ok. Before the second goes down you could undo one or both knots and take off the backup piece knowing the anchor is probably OK. That's a relatively low cost way to add some safety but the safest thing to do is... knitting.

Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71

.. but what do you do if you are attacked by a flying banana?

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349

.... I stay awake at nights worrying about how to dodge incoming space junk...

But an anchor failure... humm ...

ever get to a horrible anchor? and decide to unclip when your bud starts down?

only to reclip, because you wouldn't want to jump off??????????

Now thats something to worry about.

Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
Guy Keesee wrote:....ever get to a horrible anchor? and decide to unclip when your bud starts down? only to reclip, because you wouldn't want to jump off??????????
YES! The though was you're not taking me with you, it should hold static. Then I fixed it and avoided that person from that day on.
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65

A recent thread on tagline rappels prompted me to reflect...
(remainder of huge post that I didn't read snipped)...
Here's a general rule of thumb: if some suggestion for climbing takes more than a few sentences to explain, it's probably not worthwhile to actually do it in the field.
Or maybe you just need a good editor.

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

Way to go! You have taken one of the simplest tasks in climbing and just made it into a ginormous cluster. Even those people on that tag line thread appear simplistic to what you have postulated (and many of them are way over the top). Now, it is way more likely you are going to get messed up in some weather, benighted or dehydrated related incident. Please don't do this cluster fuck on any popular rappels. You may put others at unnecessary risk by being so frigging slow.

In all seriousness:

jktinst wrote: but are of particular concern for rappelling situations where you spend a good deal of time hanging on the rope and it spends a good deal of time sitting in the same place and possibly rubbing against the same sharp feature.
Rope getting cut? From a rappel? Something is wrong. Watch your rope next time you rappel. It hardly moves other than some initial stretch. So, cut from abrasion should not be an issue.

Ropes get cut from rock fall, leader fall with sharp edge pendulum, or repeated abrasion in the same spot perhaps while jugging. But from a rappel? There is some abrasion from those people that have a tight auto block and end up bouncing their way down the rappel. This should be avoided, but, will not cut a rope. Just unnecessary ware and slow as shit.

Use good judgement and keep it simple.

Rappel anchor in question? Then, add some gear. Two approaches to this.

1. Anchor may be adequate, but you are not sure. Add gear, but do not have it carry any load. It will only be weighted if the primary anchor fails. Have the heaviest person go first. (Shit, that's alway me.) First person could bounce test a bit when beginning his/her rappel. If you have gained enough confidence in the anchor, then the last person cleans the extra gear. If you have any question, leave the extra gear. It is easily replaced.

2. Anchor sucks. Add gear and distribute load appropriately among existing gear and your gear. Leave your gear behind. It is easily replaced.

Use good judgement and keep it simple.
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

Did I just get trolled?

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385
jktinst wrote:A recent thread on tagline rappels prompted me to reflect (again) on the risks associated with rope-cutting events. Obviously, these are critical in all climbing situations but are of particular concern for rappelling situations where you spend a good deal of time hanging on the rope and it spends a good deal of time sitting in the same place and possibly rubbing against the same sharp feature. Up until now, I (along with many others , I'm sure) always considered the rope(s) getting cut during a rappel one of those very low probability risks (provided I was careful with sharp edges along my rappel line) that could not really be avoided if rappelling was necessary. However, over the past few days, this reflection has led me to revise my position on the unavoidability of this risk. The first consideration was the possibility of using the biner block to join double or twin ropes (in addition to the more usual joining of a rope and a skinnier tagline). This would be a mre fail-proof back-up than the simple knot to prevent a catastrophic failure in the event of the pull-down rope getting cut. However, the biner block also makes a snag or a jam more likely when pulling down the rappel so I wouldn't be keen on using this approach on all rappels, especially now that I've thought through the second approach (below). For the joining of the two ropes, I'll probably simply start paying more attention to making sure that the knot is very unlikely to be able to slip through the anchor (knowing that there can be surprises there). The second approach is basically a self-arrest. It would provide a back-up against cutting of either or both ropes, as well as against anchor failure. It involves the first partner being lowered down the rappel route, placing pros along the way and anchoring the ropes at the bottom. The second partner can rappel down collecting the pros. If the top rappel anchor fails or the ropes get cut, the second partner must self-arrest using his ATC and autoblocking hitch back-up in order to arrest his own fall on the next pro down. With this approach, the first partner is probably at greater risk than the second from a rope-cutting event. However, it would have to be a pretty severe event, cutting both ropes, to be catastrophic and the continually moving ropes are somewhat less likely to get severed. He can also use his pro placements to keep the rope away from features of concern. Finally, he could be tied to both ropes but actually held on one only, leaving the other one slack; and whenever he is being lowered (ie, when he's not placing pro), he could hold the slack rope away from himself to reduce somewhat the risk that a rope-cutting event might sever both ropes. I know, that would look a bit goofy and provide at best a pretty marginal increment in safety since both ropes are clipped into the pros. However, I certainly would not want to multiply the number of pros to have two separate rope paths, much less to clip only one rope. The following is a more detailed description of this approach. - Assuming (and hoping) that there are some pro placement options along the rappel path, the first partner places and clips various pros along his descent. - Once the descent is completed, the 2nd partner sets up the two ropes for the rappel. - After setting up his own self-belay (if he hasn't yet reached the ground), the 1st partner secures the ropes to an upward-pull anchor (provided this can be done quickly) or threads them through his ATC with a mule-overhand block, leaving, in either case, just enough slack on them to avoid interfering with the second partner's rappel. - The first partner should also provide a fireman’s belay to the 2nd. - The 2nd partner rappels with one hand controlling both the brake strands and the back-up/third hand autoblocking hitch (clipped to his belay loop, not to his leg loop) and the other hand sliding along the loaded strands above the ATC, ready to self-arrest. - Of course, the 2nd partner also collects the pros along the way. - If things come undone above him, as he falls, the rope strands will switch roles: the former rappel brake strands will become the fall-arrest loaded strands and vice-versa. - The falling climber should let go of the third hand and hold tight with both hands onto the fall-arrest brake strands. - The initial arrest will actually be made by the autoblocking hitch, which, by then, will be positioned above the ATC. However, the force of the fall and arrest may blow or melt the cord so it's essential to have a tight grip on the fall-arrest brake strands as well. Additional remarks : - In this situation, the often-mentioned risk that the autoblocking hitch may fail to catch and tighten should not be an issue because, while the hitch remains in place (ie, as long as it hasn't blown or melted through), the falling climber's whole weight will be on it while the ATC wil l be sitting loose and unloaded just under it. If the hitch were to slide without grabbing, the ATC would bump up against it from below, causing it to cinch. - Aiming for a relatively small number of pro placements, keeping them fairly centered around the rappel line and using only cams would keep to a minimum the added time cost of this approach compared to the classic rappel technique. I would definitely not do pendulums to reach placements further out since this would increase the risk of severing the rope(s). - Gripping tightly the fall-arrest brake strands while falling and (presumably) getting banged up, is undoubtedly a tough proposition but I have not been able to come up with a way to ensure that the self-arrest cannot fail. It would have to be something simple involving the kind of gear found on a standard rack, as opposed to a complex rigging or special mechanical devices. If anyone can think of a good way to do this, I'd love to hear about it. - Clearly, this was all written for the ATC. I'd be quite interested in getting feedback about how this would work with the various lock-assist belaying/rappelling devices currently on the market. What happens if the loaded and brake strands suddenly switch roles without switching positions in the device? Does the lock-assist function work anyway? Does it behave more like an ATC or does it do something else entirely? When it comes to adopting this approach, I wouldn't bother using it for a single rappel starting from the top of a clean crag. I'd probably also forget about using it if I was in a major hurry to get down (approaching thunderstorm, etc.) but I would definitely apply it when facing multiple rappels and if I'm not in a desperate rush to get down. I don't seem to have much opportunity to do longer multipitches these days and am always keen to avoid rappelling if possible but I look forward to trying this at the next opportunity.
Greg D,

If so, that ^^^ is an excessively long and time consuming troll effort.
Jfriday1 · · Golden, CO · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 40

If your worried about an anchor back it up with a nut close to the anchor. If your worried about an edge then take your shirt off and pad the edge under the rope to protect.

Simple is better.

Corey Herbert · · Baltimore, MD · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 0

jktinst, I used to use this method too, man. Now what I do is bring an extra two tag lines and a hand drill kit, so much better!

When I get ready to rappel I set up the anchor, like normal and then drill two new bolts and set up that anchor, like normal!

You can be totally redundant by wearing an extra harness over your actual harness, only reversed (it's still fully rated). So then I have two ropes clipped to my atc in the front and my extra two tag lines clipped to my atc in the back.

If you back up each rappel with an autoblock it's not too difficult to manage. I'm still working out a way to tie backup knots with all four strands every 10 feet or so.

Cheers!

jktinst · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 55

Apologies to those with attention span issues who were bothered by the length of my first post. This second one is even longer so, if you're in that situation, please ignore it and save up your concentration for when you are belaying.

I have done multiraps (just not this climbing season, for a variety of reasons, and likely not again until next year). I've done them on gear, in the rain, approaching nightfall and the odd thunderstorm; as part of normal descents and in bailout situations. On a couple of bailouts, the conditions were OK for multipitch downclimbing and that's what we did instead of leaving lots of gear behind.

amarius wrote:... Petzl has instructional diagram how minimize risk of cratering due to bad bolts while being lowered off a sport climb.
Yes, Petzl recommends using a prusik back-up when lowering from a single bolt after failing to complete a pitch. The reasoning behind this, and behind using two bolts for rappel anchors, and any number of other redundancies commonly accepted in climbing practice (very low probability of failure but catastrophic consequences) is certainly similar to that of the self-arrest rappel back-up.

Clusterf***?

My initial reaction when I first thought of the self-arrest rappel back-up was also "too complex to be of much practical use". However, thinking a bit more about it, I realized that it really isn't all that complicated. First, lowering the first partner is an established way of avoiding tossing and tangling the rappel ropes. Regarding the pros, the idea is obviously not to recreate in reverse a full lead-climbing chain of pros, only to have just enough of them to stand a chance of surviving an unlikely but catastrophic failure. I'm thinking somewhere around 6 pros for a 60m rappel and that, only if the first partner can quickly find the obvious placements in the right places (no point in bunching them together). If not, he would just keep on getting lowered and look for options further down. If he doesn't find any, so be it (see the no-pro back-up description below).

Setting and removing these pros would take a few extra minutes per rappel (3, 4 minutes max.?) and I can't argue with anyone who feels that there is no way they would consider spending this extra time under any circumstance. However, I really can't see how a few pros loosely clipped to a rap line make a clusterf*** or an accident waiting to happen (see the last section below for additional discussion of this point).

In any case, implementing the self-arrest back-up would certainly not be an excuse not to do all you can to prevent a system failure in the first place (solid and redundant anchor, looking for and taking care of sharp edges along the way, etc.).

I'd discussed this with a few people prior to posting. When climbing with one of my daughters, if I can spot likely pro placements from above, I would probably get her to lower me first so I could scope the rope path for sharp features, place the pros, and give her a fireman's belay. If I can't spot pro placements, I would probably reverse the approach and lower her first. If I were climbing with a partner who is set against placing pros, I'd try to reach a no-pro compromise: lower me first; I'll ensure that the next rappel station is a bombproof multidirectional anchor, ideally with a Jesus nut within easy reach, and clip the rope to this anchor, provided I can do it while leaving enough slack for rappelling. This would add next to no time to the rappel. If the ropes or top anchor got severed, there would be an outside chance that the partner might survive the fall, plus what's left of the ropes below the cut would not be lost, which means that I'd be able to rescue myself (and, hopefully, my partner as well).

Of course, if the rappel stations have permanent multidirectional anchors and if there are some fixed pros along the rappel route, the self-arrest back-up approach will be quite fast and easy to implement.

I found it pretty interesting that these two point were made one after the other:
Greg D wrote: Ropes get cut from rock fall,(...) But from a rappel?
I don't remember ever reading about a rappel accident resulting from rope or anchor getting severed by rockfall but the various incidents of rockfall cuts that I do remember could just as easily have happened during a rappel when rope and anchor are kept under tension and will not yield to and get nudged out of the way by a falling rock.

Regarding holding back another rappelling party, if I can afford the time, I'd be happy to let a faster team pass. I also already said that I would forgo the self-arrest back-ups if I was in a rush to get down (or use the no-pro approach). In fact, in that situation and in the presence of another rappelling party also in a rush to get down, I hope that we would collaborate on installing and sharing the rappel ropes to get everyone down faster.

Em Cos wrote:... The brake hand, after the fall, would be above the belay device, and the only possible way I can imagine this person arresting their own fall was if they were to consciously switch to holding the other side of the rope and turn that into the brake strand. I am extremely dubious of this. (...) I think if your rope was cut you'd clamp down on your brake hand and that would not arrest your fall in this scenario.
I think that in a self-arrest situation, it would be much harder than in a simple rappelling loss-of-control situation to keep doggedly holding the third hand and prevent it from doing its job (despite knowing that you shouldn't) because it will be jerked 180deg when your weight gets caught by the highest pro. This is very different from normal rappelling.

I agree that, when rappelling, if you somehow lose control (while keeping hold) of the brake strands (for example by using only one brake hand positioned right over the third-hand autoblocking hitch), forcing yourself to release that hand to let the hitch do its job is completely counterinstinctive. I'm also far from convinced that this would be a good reflex to try and acquire. If you retain some hold on the brake strands, you're better off trying to regain proper control of them by grabbing them with the other hand below the first, rather than relinquishing control altogether, hoping that the third-hand will catch.

It happens that this option is also quite compatible with a self-arrest situation. In both cases, it's going to be very obvious which are the loaded strands and which are the brake strands. Instead of thinking to let go of a third-hand, one could just focus on grabbing the brake strands with both hands asap.

In what circumstances might there be a problem?

Trying to imagine in what circumstances having a few pros clipped to the rappel rope could be a significant problem, all I could come up with is the following scenario.
- The first partner gets lowered and installs the pros not suspecting that anything is about to go wrong with the second partner (if he was, he definitely shouldn’t clip pros and may want to rethink whether the rappel should be done and how).
- The second partner completes the installation of the rappel but suddenly becomes completely incapacitated.
- In these circumstances (with a partner having become incapacitated, possibly not knowing for sure whether he’s securely tied-in but knowing that a solidly anchored rope is available to ascend to him), the first partner decides that he needs to pull down the rope to carry on rappelling on his own.

If the second partner is still up at the previous anchor but unable to rappel or to communicate, I would expect that the first partner would reascend to him to provide assistance instead of getting out of Dodge (and the pros do not impede this ascension). I won't get into the different unlikely scenarios I played with that might result in the first partner genuinely needing to pull down the ropes (and their knot) through the pros. The least unlikely one was if the second partner got himself untethered as he was trying to get on rappel and fell off the wall, coming to a stop well-below the first partner (either on the ground or on something large enough to have stopped a fall of well-over a full rope length: large ledge, tree, etc.). In this case, while it might seem pretty hopeless to rappel to his position, there is no doubt that that would have to be the first partner's top priority.

I ran some tests to see what would happen if one tried to pull the rappel rope through clipped pros. Preliminary tests at home with and EDK tied on my double 8.6mm Béal Cobras indicated that, in this situation, there is one rappel set-up that pulls through the QDs fairly easily and another that doesn't. Looking at the two ropes coming out of an EDK, you can see that one comes out from near the center of the knot, while the other comes out close to the outside edge. If the rappel is rigged to pull on that outside rope, the knot will catch on biners and get stuck pretty badly. If rigged to pull on the center rope, the knot will roll and pull through the biners fairly easily.

Next in the testing, I clipped the 2 ropes tied with the EDK through 5 Petzl Spirit bent gate QDs on a lead route at my gym, with the knot located between the top QD and the next one down (ie with the top QD acting as the rappel anchor) and configured to pull on the center rope. I was able to pull the knot through the lower 4 biners without problem. Further testing outdoors would be useful but it seems, at least for double ropes of 8.6mm or less, that ensuring that the rappel ropes can be pulled through the self-arrest back-up pros means simply rigging them so they must be pulled on the center rope. I suppose that a rope-and-tagline system might not behave in quite the same way and would need to be tested.

Of course, if some other circumstance results in the ropes getting stuck while pulling, having them clipped into pros would prevent or render more difficult some of the usual methods of dislodging them (flicking, moving back and forth and sideways) but we're talking about a small subset (rope getting stuck on pulling) of a very rare situation (having to pull the rope through the pros instead of simply removing them).

Anyway, if someone can come up with circumstances that could spell trouble specifically for the self-arrest back-up approach, I would really like to hear about it. Certainly, if a storm rolls in fast and completely unexpectedly while you are rappelling, you may rue the few minutes you spent backing up the previous rappels but then, you might as well also rue the time you spent sleeping that morning instead of starting the climb earlier, walking instead of running on the approach, taking photos, removing your shoes while belaying, etc.
BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385
jktinst wrote: The following is a more detailed description of this approach. - Assuming (and hoping) that there are some pro placement options along the rappel path, the first partner places and clips various pros along his descent. - Once the descent is completed, the 2nd partner sets up the two ropes for the rappel. - After setting up his own self-belay (if he hasn't yet reached the ground), the 1st partner secures the ropes to an upward-pull anchor (provided this can be done quickly) or threads them through his ATC with a mule-overhand block, leaving, in either case, just enough slack on them to avoid interfering with the second partner's rappel. - The first partner should also provide a fireman’s belay to the 2nd. - The 2nd partner rappels with one hand controlling both the brake strands and the back-up/third hand autoblocking hitch (clipped to his belay loop, not to his leg loop) and the other hand sliding along the loaded strands above the ATC, ready to self-arrest. - Of course, the 2nd partner also collects the pros along the way. - If things come undone above him, as he falls, the rope strands will switch roles: the former rappel brake strands will become the fall-arrest loaded strands and vice-versa. - The falling climber should let go of the third hand and hold tight with both hands onto the fall-arrest brake strands. - The initial arrest will actually be made by the autoblocking hitch, which, by then, will be positioned above the ATC. However, the force of the fall and arrest may blow or melt the cord so it's essential to have a tight grip on the fall-arrest brake strands as well. Additional remarks : - In this situation, the often-mentioned risk that the autoblocking hitch may fail to catch and tighten should not be an issue because, while the hitch remains in place (ie, as long as it hasn't blown or melted through), the falling climber's whole weight will be on it while the ATC wil l be sitting loose and unloaded just under it. If the hitch were to slide without grabbing, the ATC would bump up against it from below, causing it to cinch. - Gripping tightly the fall-arrest brake strands while falling and (presumably) getting banged up, is undoubtedly a tough proposition but I have not been able to come up with a way to ensure that the self-arrest cannot fail.
I'm not quite sure I'm understanding your approach here.

I'm assuming that the idea is, that your partner (while being lowered and has no benefit of a backup) would place and clip pro to one line only (the one they are being lowered on) all the way to the next rappel station. The questions for me here are, how is this lowering of the partner conducted? If there is lack of communication visually, audibly, or other how are you to determine the pro was placed, if you stop them in the correct place, etc? The partner would be placing pro at head level and clipping a taut line at best. Some rappels, following your idea, may call for you to search, stop, small traverse, and reach possibly more than once.

Again, I'm assuming, but would your rappel appear as a normal rappel where you have a line coming out from both sides of the carabiner/ring/whatnot? One side is free and one side is clipped to pro? In this scenario when you are rappelling all pro will be cleaned from below the belay device. I would think this could become a p.i.t.a. if the situation calls for what I described above (stop, lock off, possible traverse, etc.).

In the case of a fall it may be very difficult, as you did mention, to knowingly relax your grip and then reapply. From my experience the characteristic observed is an instant tight grip wherever that hand may be. Furthermore, in what I'm assuming the situation calls for there is another factor to take into account. If there is a failure at the anchor and you are caught by the next pro is your hand going to be ripped from the lines anyway, for they will be doing the splits under your device? Not to mention the slack you will have that you already ran through the device - where is that going if the third hand is compromised?

I must be missing something! If not, and this is as you described I'll be sticking to the traditional method with simple procedures to follow, along with, less gear to inspect.

Keep working on that new wheel though, for you may have a break through someday and MP will be taking about the jktinst method. Kudos to you for working on a situation that you are thinking about. This is a good thing.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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