A little whining about draws removed from Sinopia

Jon W wrote: It wasn't mine. I left it there. I know someone else took it. But my conscience is clear.

a $20 on the sidewalk is most definitively booty. would you take a cam that was left by an inexperienced second? I would, although only if that party has already left the crag. by leaving the crag without retrieving your gear is leaving it as booty

leaving draws on a project is different and, although I personally frown upon pink pointing (especially when it's pre-placed gear), i'm not going to be that asshole that steals projecting draws. I will however, give you shit for pre-placing gear, especially if the route is rated G or PG. And I've earned the right to do that by leading red book (Durangotangs, you know what i'm talking about) without pre-placing gear or inspecting gear placements, against the recommendation of a friend

i mentioned a time limit: when they left the crag without retrieving them that's when they become booty. while the normal ethic is to leave project draws, not everybody knows that. it could be some gym gumby that thinks they're booty.

so back to the $20: if they see me pick it up and come up to me, I'd certainly give it back to them. if i drop a twenty somewhere, though, I don't expect it to be there if I go back and look for it. Yeah it sucks, but such is life, and you're just going to have to find a way to pick up the pieces.

And yes this has happened to me before. One time my wallet fell out of my pocket while I watching a movie. 10 min after the movie was over, when I realized what happend, I came back to look for it and it was gone. I lost almost $100 in cash and checks, which is a lot of money to a 15 yr old. Again, it sucks, but now I know not to overstuff my pockets and always check my pockets after sitting in the same place for over an hour. it's part of life, get over it.

I've even had fixed gear stolen off the anchors of a popular sport climb at Fume Wall twice, including 2 biners that i personally donated and put there. that's even worse than stealing project draws but I didn't throw a temper tantrum over it.

i would certainly try to return the wallet, especially if I saw the person who dropped it. but that is comparing apples to oranges

JCM wrote:One thing I have thought about doing is getting a small set of "gym draws" or even proper permadraws for this situation.

This is what I generally do when I leave project draws up. I do understand that they may still be stolen and that's a risk I take, but it's kind of like locking your car or bike, the quicklink attachment to the bolt certainly makes it more difficult to steal.

BillS wrote: Thus speaks the owner of what could quite possibly be MP.com's weakest tick breakdown. You go get 'em cowboy - 5.8 w/o draws already hanging must be a real boost to the ego - to then post so much useless noob shit to this forum.

I'm not being sarcastic when I say that Devils Lake 5.8s can be pretty frigging hard!

Powhound has a point, if you leave something out you have to be prepared for the worst. It's just that comments like his can give the (mistaken) impression of blaming the victim and condoning theft.

Thanks to all for kind thoughts. I had mixed feelings about posting anything, but this has gotten me really motivated to get back on the climb. It has fun movement and is a real challenge for me.

Matt Stroebel wrote:Buy stainless hardware that is the same steel or very similar to the bolts on the route if you insist on leaving draws up. Does it rain at this crag? If yes, then the fact that the aluminum is touching the steel in the presence of an electrolyte (water) means that you are increasing the rate of corrosion on the steel parts.

Wrong, this would increase the rate of corrosion in the aluminum biner (anode), not the steel bolt (cathode), but any effect on either would be negligible in most climbing environments due to the extremely short time that the electrolyte stays in between the two metals.

In all seriousness, galvanic corrosion is way over hyped in most climbing situations.

powhound84 wrote: As is yours. Not even close. You are an asshole for comparing petty theft to rape. Do you leave your keys in the car and your bicycle unlocked? Do you leave your house for a few days without locking the doors? Maybe you should go leave your life savings in a bag hanging from a street sign too. Expecting people not to steal indicates a serious lack of intelligence. I always hope that people have good morals and intentions but not everyone does, as evident from the stolen gear threads that pop up every week. I agree 100%. Keep in mind I never defended the person who stole them. That person is obviously a thief=scumbag and I hope he/she gets some nice swift karma as payback. It just gets old hearing the same old sob story every week from people who leave their draws out to be stolen knowing damn well how common project draw theft is. How so? Because I don't steal but still protect my stuff to the best of my ability against theft? Because I know there are people out there who don't give a shit about morality? How exactly does that make me part of the problem?

I didn't compare rape to petty theft. I compared the deplorable attitudes in both cases. And you accuse me of not being intelligent? That's 6th Grade reading comprehension, Powhound84, and you failed it.

For many years (and even today) rape victims were afraid to come forward because their attackers were often acquitted and they were often blamed for "inviting attack". By doing this the community was essentially sanctioning rape and predators were not deterred, much less jailed.

You are part of the problem because you blame the victim and encourage draw thieves, and I don't consider that to be appropriate for a member of the climbing community.

Lets look at another example: an alpine team leaves all their stuff at basecamp during their summit push. According to you, they are inviting someone to take it and it's their own fault if someone does.

Powhound84, your attitude is bullshit, regardless of how much you want to argue.

kennoyce wrote: In all seriousness, galvanic corrosion is way over hyped in most climbing situations.

Yes, very true.

In my opinion, if you find something that is uniquely identifiable, such as a wallet, boreal shoes, misc climbing gear, etc, then you have a moral obligation to try to find the owner.

Since nobody writes down the serial number of their dollar bills, money found on the street is booty. There is no way to find the owner. And to think that the owner of the $20 bill is coming right back for it? I don't buy that. Although I once found a 20 on the floor in my place of work and I turned it in. That was different because there was a lost and found to give it to.

I found an $800 watch last year on a trail near Vail. I ran it over with my motorcycle. I could have left it there to get further run over, rained on, cooked in the sun. Of course I took it and made every effort to find the owner including a CL ad in Vail, note at TH, contacting the NHL, Penguins and IIHF (because based on an inscription, it was a prize at an IIHF tourney). But I had no luck and I am wearing the watch right now. But if I get the call from Switzerland saying the IIHF found the owner, I will ship it right off. My conscience is clear and I dont think I'm a thief, but I guess some people would disagree.

Jon W wrote: Then, in your mind, there are varying degrees of theft. Some of which are acceptable.

This is true. If someone was stealing food from a corporation like kroger so they can feed their family, I have absolutely zero objection because that person needs the food much more than Kroger needs $10. If someone stole a cam from backcountry (local gear shop in Durango), however, I would encourage the person to either go pay for it or return it, because a cam is certainly a want rather than a need and Backcountry probably needs the money more than the person needs the cam.

However, I don't consider booty to be theft. I will post a comment on the route on MP and a thread in the lost and found section trying to return the gear. If nobody responds, it's booty and I will either put it to use or find a good home for it. I think local ethics play a large factor in this issue, though.

Oh and FWIW, if someone left gear on a climb due to an accident, IT'S NOT BOOTY! I wish I wouldn't have to make this distinction but I have seen things just as ignorant as this happen so...

Jon W wrote: Then, in your mind, there are varying degrees of theft. Some of which are acceptable.

This is true. If someone was stealing food from a corporation like kroger so they can feed their family, I have absolutely zero objection because that person needs the food much more than Kroger needs $10. If someone stole a cam from backcountry (local gear shop in Durango), however, I would encourage the person to either go pay for it or return it, because a cam is certainly a want rather than a need and Backcountry probably needs the money more than the person needs the cam.

However, I don't consider booty to be theft. I will post a comment on the route on MP and a thread in the lost and found section trying to return the gear. If nobody responds, it's booty and I will either put it to use or find a good home for it. I think local ethics play a large factor in this issue, though.

Oh and FWIW, if someone left gear on a climb due to an accident, IT'S NOT BOOTY! I wish I wouldn't have to make this distinction but I have seen things just as ignorant as this happen so...

Taking your shoes was theft. If someone thought they were left behind and forgotten, there is a lost and found for that.

Taking the project draws from Sinopia was theft because although someone could argue that the draws were mistakenly left there ( however unlikely that may be) and therefore booty, the uniquely identifiable characteristic of them was the name of the route they were taken from. Using the name of the route, the owner could be tried to be found. But admittedly I am a weak judge when it comes to project draws because I'm not good enough yet to have used them.

Mark, I sent that route trad yesterday and removed the draws. I'll be back this evening to remove the bolts.

Trad!!!!!!

Jon W wrote:By your moral compass, someone could be justified in stealing from me because they need it

You are twisting my words. This is NOT what I said. There is a huge difference between a multi-million-dollar corporation and a person who is a little better off than others. Now if you had a million in cash just lying around, I wouldn't be upset if someone stole food from you to feed their family.

If I found out that someone stole food from me to feed their family I wouldn't press charges or anything. Rather I would ask them to please steal from some big corporation next time that won't even notice $20s of food gone.

Anyone who thinks that gear is booty, except in extraordinary circumstances, is a miserable fucking human; you deserve that lame ass grade you climb.

Period.

J Q wrote:Anyone who thinks that gear is booty, except in extraordinary circumstances, is a miserable fucking human; you deserve that lame ass grade you climb. Period.

Are you a speechwriter for Trump?

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:Mark, I sent that route trad yesterday and removed the draws. I'll be back this evening to remove the bolts. Trad!!!!!!

Yes, but you're one of those young guys I can't keep up with!
Hope school is going well.

These attitudes are not mutually exclusive. You can be not surprised when some ass takes project draws AND believe it is stealing. I can shake my head in wonder that climbers leave their draws in public and are shocked when they go missing AND still believe it is theft.

It would be like leaving my car unlocked with the keys sitting on the seat in the middle of Stockton (sorry Stocktonites). I would not be shocked when my car went missing and maybe it was kind of a stupid thing to do, but the bottom line is that it is still theft.

csproul wrote:These attitudes are not mutually exclusive. You can be not surprised when some ass takes project draws AND believe it is stealing. I can shake my head in wonder that climbers leave their draws in public and are shocked when they go missing AND still believe it is theft. It would be like leaving my car unlocked with the keys sitting on the seat in the middle of Stockton (sorry Stocktonites). I would not be shocked when my car went missing and maybe it was kind of a stupid thing to do, but the bottom line is that it is still theft.

Pretty much sums up my own feeling about it.

I think there are two fundamentally different view points in these threads. The first is "It's stealing! No one should steal. Therefore I can leave my stuff wherever I want and it should still be there when I get back. We should all do this and spread the word that it IS stealing so no one steals anything anymore!" And then there's "It doesn't matter what the law says, someone might steal my stuff regardless of the legalities. I wish it weren't this way but it is. I will take responsibility for the security of my property."

And if anyone wants to read an outrageous comparison: if the law says no one can steal you things, physical attack you or murder you, would you care to take a walk through a really dangerous neighborhood, alone, unarmed and at night? If not, you should probably accept that the laws we have discourage but do not PREVENT crime. Your safety and the safety of your property is ultimately YOUR responsibility. That's just how it is. Wishing it were any different is pointless.

The only reason I can see to make comments about how taking someone's project draws is stealing, is to educate anyone reading this who doesn't already know that. And that's been done many times over in this thread.

Jake Jones wrote:Mark's OP, to me, didn't read like he was shocked that they were taken. More like disappointed. Everyone's so goddamned quick to pass judgment on someone when if the same thing happened to us, whether we expected it might happen or not, would be a bummer. I think part of the reason he might have thought they'd still be there is because it sounds like they were just put-together Frankenstein draws used specifically for the purpose of leaving up. So, before being so quick to pounce someone, how about taking the high road and cutting each other some slack once in a while? It's almost Christmas. Fuckers.

Just to be clear with everyone, I'm not trying to give Mark a hard time about this. It seems like his OP was very reasonable. My last post was directed towards posts that have followed and the mentality expressed within them.