Bad Bolts on Rogers

I don't expect Guides to do the actual work unless they also have the proper skills. I do expect them to pony up the bulk of the funds for the hardware though that almost never seems to happen. BTW just being a hard climber has zero crossover to knowing how to bolt properly.

Nick, we totally agree with you with the fact that these things should be replaced. There's no debate about it. However, there are realistic problems with some of the statements being made.

The time and money thing is actually a real problem. We all work 40 (+) hrs/week. Especially in the summer when there's money to be made. No one (at least of my climber friends) in the north country are making 6 figure salaries. Heck. I make barely enough to afford two very modest road trips/season. I'm not crying the poverty song, I'm just letting you know that funding and time are serious issues for locals--and I don't even have a family (many of the guides do). I can't take days off of work to replace hardware, make enough to pay bills, and still have time for personal climbing.

As far as "guides should pay for it": I can't speak for the Lake George area guiding services, but in KV region there are a few different types of guiding groups. To be licensed to guide rock climbing by the state of NY you must give a resume showing you've lead 10 multipitch routes (no difficulty restrictions), pass a 10 question multiple choice exam (almost every question is taken from the Mike Loughman "Learning to Rock Climb" circa 1981), have a CPR and basic first aid (not a WFR) certification and hand over a $25 check. That's it. There is no SPI or other AMGA certs are required. You need to prove zero climbing skills, competency or understanding.

There is also the loop hole in that if a camp counselor is leading a group of campers, they do not need to hire a guide. That means a teenager who was shown how to sling a tree with two biners can take a group of kids TRing at the Beer Walls. You'll see it all the time. You can't hold these children responsible for understanding good/bad fixed gear.

I'm not sure if any of you are skiers, but the APSA has been trying for years (decades?) to convince the APA and the DEC that backcountry skiers are a major winter user group. It wasn't until the APSA president made a call for users to write a letters to the APA to bombard them with stacks of envelopes that they even considered listening to the group's Management Amendments. This has now been a work in progress since almost a year ago. You can't even call it a success because even after all those letters, they only got the DEC to LISTEN, not even adopt a plan. If it will ever become something, it likely won't be for at least another few years.

Maybe we climbers are just lazy but it may also just come back to the time = money thing. And many of these anchors/bolts don't have another 5-10 years left in them for wait for an APA battle and outcome. I certainly don't have the mental/physical energy to battle it out with the DEC to even attempt for them to listen to a plan which would allow permits for replacing bolts. Discussions with Rangers prove that they don't believe it's of much use either. frankly, it's easier to sneak around and do it when no one is watching. ...No really, those nice, shiny, not-going-to-kill-you bolts on P2 of Tilmans? There may have been scouts and walkie talkies involved. It's sad that it comes to that. If you don't like it, maybe you can head the group against the DEC & APA.

What it comes down to is there are a few of us who are doing our parts when we can. The "climbing elders" may have put up a ton of awesome routes BITD, but many of them have opposing opinions on how/when/why/where to bolt so it may be best to take their opinions with a grain of salt.

How many folks in this discussion actually live within the Blue Line? The number of Locals:Climbers from elsewhere is very disproportionate. No one (really) travels to places like MA or VT to go climbing there. Yet NH and the ADK which probably see tens of thousands of visitors a season are blamed with having shitty hardware. It seems pretty common that visitors complain that it's scary. Well, we invite you to do yourselves a favor and replace any shitty fixed gear you find. As I said before, we're doing what we can when we can.

Edit: Grabbed the wrong date from the book initially. Corrected it now.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:I don't expect Guides to do the actual work unless they also have the proper skills.

Its not a matter of skill its a matter of liability and that they'd be a private company either participating in or financially supporting illegal bolting.

I'm sure almost every guide would tend to agree if it got back to the administrators that a guiding service was placing bolts (whatever the context) they could be banned from the property, sued for damages, if an accident ever occurred the victims could try to come after their company or them. Just not worth it... so I wouldn't get pissed about them not coming to help in those efforts. I would be pissed that maybe they weren't having conversations about with the admins to address safety concerns though.

"Actually that's false, because placing bolts and using power drills on state land is illegal and therefore people with good intentions have to sneak around in the middle of the night to replace this garbage."

How accurate is this? I've been bolting in the Adirondacks this summer rather nonchalantly and would like to know if I should be a bit more discrete...

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote:To be licensed to guide rock climbing by the state of NY you must give a resume showing you've lead 10 multipitch routes (no difficulty restrictions), pass a 10 question multiple choice exam (almost every question is taken from the Mike Loughman "Learning to Rock Climb" circa 1938), have a CPR and basic first aid (not a WFR) certification and hand over a $25 check. That's it.

Don't forget about the water safety course!!! Don't tell me they finally nixed that requirement??!!!

KrisFiore wrote:How accurate is this? I've been bolting in the Adirondacks this summer rather nonchalantly and would like to know if I should be a bit more discrete...

yes

Morgan Patterson wrote: Don't forget about the water safety course!!! Don't tell me they finally nixed that requirement??!!!

You're totally right. I forgot about that part! Ha!

KrisFiore wrote:"Actually that's false, because placing bolts and using power drills on state land is illegal and therefore people with good intentions have to sneak around in the middle of the night to replace this garbage." How accurate is this? I've been bolting in the Adirondacks this summer rather nonchalantly and would like to know if I should be a bit more discrete...

It depends on how much you care about getting a ticket.

I don't include camp kill a kid guides in the picture at all. I am talking about the major guide companys that work the cliffs like they own them.
I ran into the liability issues with the local guide company in VT and the solution was i bought the anchors and they gave me some cash. Not a lot but enough to make me feel less abused. Like at least I got kissed;) I hear you on the broke part. I work 40hrs construction and keep my photo buisness limping allong and am broke to show for it yet i somhowe find the time and money to do anchor replacement. . As far as rebolting goes this really is an ADK thing. In VT or NH if someone points out that an anchor needs fixing it generally gets done within a week or so. By far the most prolific bolters in N conway are guides.

Nick, the guides in the Dacks don't make shit. The guys in NH charge $300+/day so yea I see why they have extra coin to buy bolts and cordless drills. On the other hand, $195-$200 for a day is a joke when you think what that guide brings home after the owner takes his (which ain't much) and taxes.

How about the anchor at Bozeman Bullet? That thing gets a rope TRed through it all the time. God, why doesn't somebody replace that every year? Jeez I'm sure those lazy locals are the ones TRing.

Lastly, I won't extend my finger or talk shit. The idea of you running your mouth to certain guides in the Adirondacks makes me chuckle.

Everyone else...

Instead of whining I emailed and texted a bunch of people last night. I got some replies too. Things are in the works.

Bill Kirby wrote: Things are in the works.

Nice!!!

Bill you're just trying to get the upgrades going before we make our run at it? Seriously we should get that planned out soon!

I have no doubt that they are tough and talented. That does not change the fact that their house is messy.

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote: It depends on how much you care about getting a ticket.

So far it's been at Eagle Falls where the water noise generally drowns anything out but good to know. I know the local ranger there but i like know the specifics anyway, especially if I take to other cliffs which I had planned on. In Vermont the biggest worry is other climbers which has proven to be no problemo.

Thanks!

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote:...(almost every question is taken from the Mike Loughman "Learning to Rock Climb" circa 1938)...

Published in 1982, actually.

Bill Kirby wrote:Everyone else... Instead of whining I emailed and texted a bunch of people last night. I got some replies too. Things are in the works.

I emailed a few people yesterday as well. Likely a few of the same people.

The suggestion for gathering a list of bad bolts and anchors is probably a good one.

The DEC and APA are not the same agency, and they have different roles in this discussion and in the implementation of formal policy. They are being used interchangeably and shouldn't be. The DEC are more likely to be our friends if a framework was established, and the APA less likely to care about climber impacts. "Climbing" impacts are very low level in the grand scheme of the things the APA are most concerned about.

Fwiw, I've read some on how the national park agency and Yosemite climbers developed their working relationship. We're in a much more friendly situation here in NYS with the DEC than they were with the NPS in Yosemite. If they can work something out, it stands to reason we could too. The issue is that we're disorganized, and without an operating committee to represent "climbing" in the ADKs we can't be represented when policies are being reviewed and written. So the policies remain the same and we continue on the same path which prompts these discussions from time to time. Probably because nothing's broke.

There's a database system on MP to list hardware for a route and their condition, but you need to be an admin for the area to add the information:
mountainproject.com/scripts…

Guys, a little about where my information comes from: I interact regularly with many of the local rangers, the lieutenant for region 5 lives just down the road from me, a bigwig from the A.P.A. (who probably knows park regulations better than anyone) is a regular ski partner of mine, I've had extensive conversations with all of these people all well as the D.E.C.s region 5 public spokesperson. Placing fixed anchors on state land is illegal. I've approached it every way I can think of and this is where the conversation ends up. If anyone thinks they can get a different answer then I encourage them to have at it, if you succeed I'll be really psyched.

The best option really seems to be to sneak around and plan on begging forgiveness later rather than asking permission now. It sucks. Unfortunately even the local rangers who agree that us replacing fixed anchors is better than them doing body recoveries have their hands tied. They're stuck enforcing the law, like it or not.

One of the many problems with an Adirondack climbers advocacy group is that the Adirondacks are really big, really spread out. Very few of the climbers you meet out at the cliffs are from here, the majority of the regulars come from Albany, Burlington, Syracuse, New Jersey, all over. Many people are only here for the summer. The small groups of true locals are often semi-isolated, doing their own thing in relative seclusion with their own idea of how things "should" be done. Some of these groups don't seem to like each other. Rounding all these different people up into a cohesive group sounds like herding cats. A climbers group has been tried a couple of times and just seems to fizzle out. As with interacting with the powers that be, if you want to try to make it work you've got my support.

There was a move during the S.L.M.P. amendment process's public comment period last winter to get "mountaineering" added to the approved list of uses on state land. This would hopefully open the door to talks with the state about fixed anchors. I'm getting this second hand so if someone has better information put it out there but apparently one of the environmental groups like PROTECT! got wind of it and for every positive letter about fixed anchors sent in by climbers they sent in at least one totally against them, how they were destroying the wilderness and all that crap, and the plan backfired.

Another problem we have around here was demonstrated quickly in this very thread: there is a contingent of people who for some reason think that having crappy anchors makes the place special, or more trad, or more like it was back in the day, or some other nonsense. To illustrate my point let me tell everybody about the Rockaholic anchor.

The first time I climbed Rockaholic (c. 1994 or so) there was a sturdy hemlock at the top of the good section which sported slings and rings and served as the official TR/lower off anchor. Eventually, as happens, the tree died and over the next few years began to look sketchier and sketchier. A couple of locals decided to place two beefy bolts with rap hangers just to the right. Seemed like a great idea to me, but not everybody. Someone quickly chopped this "convenience anchor" (never mind that it replaced an anchor which had been in the same spot since 1983 and also never mind that the perpetrator is responsible for two of the most B.S. convenience anchors in the Adirondacks -one at Wallface and the other in the Trap Dyke). For the rest of that season everybody climbed up through the uninspiring terrain to the top of the cliff until a new anchor consisting of two pitons tied together with old climbing rope (one of which is pulled straight out as you start to rappel) and backed up up with a marginal looking #4 Stopper appeared. THIS is of course deemed totally acceptable. How this makes sense is beyond my comprehension, I don't get it, never will.

That anchor would get replaced this very afternoon except for the fact that it will be chopped again, leaving what would then be four instead of two ugly and useless stud-filled holes in the rock.

Given everything I laid out above I'm content to fly under the radar and do what I can. I encourage everyone else to do so as well.

MaxSuffering wrote:As with interacting with the powers that be, if you want to try to make it work you've got my support. There was a move during the S.L.M.P. amendment process's public comment period last winter to get "mountaineering" added to the approved list of uses on state land. This would hopefully open the door to talks with the state about fixed anchors. I'm getting this second hand so if someone has better information put it out there but apparently one of the environmental groups like PROTECT! got wind of it and for every positive letter about fixed anchors sent in by climbers they sent in at least one totally against them, how they were destroying the wilderness and all that crap, and the plan backfired.

As you explain here, the designations and regulations need to be changed. There's no way to work within them as they're currently written. That process takes organization and time. Since there's no organization there's no way they'll ever change.

My comments in this thread are aimed at explaining what would need to be done to change things. If things are fine as they are and we want to continue guerrilla style, then by all means. But I suspect things will rust and tat will disintegrate at a rate faster than it can be replaced in the coming years, without more bodies and access. This comes down to seeing the inevitable and making plans for it, or crashing into the wall. I'm willing to help us avoid that wall, I'm others would be as well. But we're simply being (feeling) shut out and discussion of getting climbing protection 'legalized' preemptively squashed.

Kevin, sounds like you're up for the job. I've already said you'll have my support.