Slap-slide vs. BUS method?

eli poss wrote:If you don't trust your belayer, just treat it like a free solo

"If trust your belayer you do not, you're an idiot for climbing with them?" -Yoda

David Gibbs wrote:... What I personally often do, especially if taking rope in quickly is alternate hands, because it saves a movement. By that, I mean start with left-hand high on active strand, right-hand high on brake. Take brake parallel, pull down with left, up with right; then immediately return to brake position. Now left-hand moves to high (near belay device) on brake strand & grips, right-hand goes to high on active strand. (in essence, I've just switched from right-hand brake to left-hand brake). Then repeat, but with right- & left-hand actions reverse. I've done enough multi-pitch belaying that I've found I've needed to become comfortable belaying with either hand, since sometimes the stance/belay setup will make one far easier than the other. So, I don't mind switching...

This is my preferred method too for TR belaying and taking in the slack after a leader’s clip. I like the greater speed and economy of movement of completing a take in 3 movements instead of 4.

It may be that I’m just paying more attention to others’ belaying since discovering this technique but I get the impression that there is an increasing number of people out there using it (both in the gym and outdoors). You do have to know what to look for to spot it in others because, when casually checking that a belayer several meters away is competent, the natural tendency is to focus on making sure that any hand switching occurs with the rope held in braking position. Since the alternating braking hand technique fulfills this requirement 100%, one can easily miss the alternation. In any case, I feel that there should be a name for this technique. “Alternating hand BUS”, “Ambidextrous BUS”, “ABUS”?

When teaching belaying nowadays, I insist on the trainee learning first the standard BUS using their non-dominant hand for braking. Once they are good with this, I get them to practice it using their dominant hand and then recommend that, from then on, they periodically switch between the two to maintain a good level of comfort braking with either hand.

Once you have acquired this kind of proficiency with the standard BUS, switching to the Alter/Ambi BUS is so natural that you might even do it instinctively (as I did).

Who says you can't keep your hand below the device when your not paying out or taking up slack? You're going to be above when moving rope in PBUS as well. The only difference is when your taking up slack is in the slide which is a split second if you're fast.

jktinst wrote: Once you have acquired this kind of proficiency with the standard BUS, switching to the Alter/Ambi BUS is so natural that you might even do it instinctively (as I did).

I know that nobody actually taught me ABUS, I just started doing it when in a hurry. So... yeah... instinctively.

I sometimes worry, though, if I do a belay-check at a new gym whether they'd accept it as a valid method. An intelligent belay-checker with judgement, sure. But some of the... it must be exactly-the-proscribed-way checks... I find I'm sometimes tempted to ask... how do they want to see it done, and just do their way for their test.

Jon H wrote: * PALMS DOWN. Seriously. With every single device except (maybe) the AlpineUp. Palms up is a relic from 20 years ago and now we know better. *

I do not know better. Why is this better than palm up? With palm up, it is more intuitive to feed slack faster. What is the advantage of palm down? Faster lock off time?

Josh Lipko wrote:Belay safely and proficiently in the style you are most comfortable with. Either of these styles will catch a fall if those two criteria are met.

Ding-ding. Give the man a beer.

It mystifies me how this idea that the dogmatic and mindlessly blanket application of just the 'right' device or technique is somehow a substitute for basic competencies has creeped into climbing. It's like climbing forums have become bad meme generators.

eli poss wrote:i think that's pretty close minded, and I have a few partners who have been invaluable to my experience and growth as

Yes my mind is closed to the idea of getting a shit belay.

gription wrote: Yes my mind is closed to the idea of getting a shit belay.

And that really doesn't have fuck all to do with palm up or down...

David Gibbs wrote: I know that nobody actually taught me ABUS, I just started doing it when in a hurry. So... yeah... instinctively. I sometimes worry, though, if I do a belay-check at a new gym whether they'd accept it as a valid method. An intelligent belay-checker with judgement, sure. But some of the... it must be exactly-the-proscribed-way checks... I find I'm sometimes tempted to ask... how do they want to see it done, and just do their way for their test.

Yeah... Gyms. I think that they shoulder a lot of the blame for generations of new climbers who can only belay with their dominant hand on brake (like they can thread their figure 8, loop it through the harness and rethread it in only one particular way and orientation, etc.). I understand that for legal and insurance purposes, they need to prescribe (I think that's the one you wanted, instead of "proscribe") and verify one specific method, ie the BUS, but teaching it exclusively with the dominant hand on brake is just a shortcut to get noobs belay-ready for the gym in the shortest possible time (ie cheapest possible way) with no regard for the broader implications.

As for using ABUS in the gym, I certainly would not try to ask gym staff or management if it's OK if I use it, or try to use it in an accreditation test. However, once they are used to seeing you climbing there, it's unlikely that they'll spot the difference if you switch to it, unless they already know about it (or have read this post, I suppose). If they do, hopefully, they won't call you out on it but take it instead as an indication that you know what you're doing as a belayer.

I, and a couple of others at least at my gym, have used it many times in full view of staff. They never said anything and we never caught them taking a closer look at us. I've also shown it to friends, explaining the fewer movements and alternating brake hand and they could not see the difference until I slowed it right down and pointed out exactly where the previous brake hand goes straight up to the live strand instead of back to brake.

matt c. wrote: I do not know better. Why is this better than palm up? With palm up, it is more intuitive to feed slack faster. What is the advantage of palm down? Faster lock off time?

Palm down provides more powerful braking for tube-style devices for three reasons. (1) You tend get bigger brake-strand angles (closer to 180 degrees) with the palm down. (2) As you approach those more powerful brake strand angles with the palm up, the wrist position becomes increasingly awkward and your gripping power may decline as a result. (3) In the palm-up method, the rope emerges from the brake hand at the pinky, whereas it emerges at the thumb in the palm-down method. It will be easier to tear the rope away in the pinky orientation.

You can compensate for all of this. But from what I've observed, people belaying palm-up tend to maintain a relatively weak braking angle and don't react to increase it by much when a fall happens. They'll catch the typical low-fall-factor leader fall but are, I think, likely to fail if they have to withstand a (fortunately rare) really big impact.

I know several people who used to use the palm up method, burnt their hands catching biggish falls, switched over to palm down, and have since managed to hold analogous falls with no slippage.

I do agree that rope handling, especially with half ropes, is better palm-up. My personal solution is to use the Alpine Up and the palm-up position for all half-rope belaying.

The one edge case that comes up in palms up v down is when your hand gets sucked into the belay device. Palms up will result in tougher skin getting sucked in. Don't bother saying this can only happen with bad technique - I said it was an edge case.

Eric Engberg wrote:The one edge case that comes up in palms up v down is when your hand gets sucked into the belay device. Palms up will result in tougher skin getting sucked in. Don't bother saying this can only happen with bad technique - I said it was an edge case.

I'm a firm believer in belay gloves, in which case the sensitive skin issue is moot, good or bad technique.

I've spent a good deal of time thinking about the palms up vs. palms down. Having learned and used both at various times throughout my mediocre climbing career- I've become an ardent supporter of the palms up method. Slip slide pinch I dunnoo. (and swirl at the end. Seinfeld plug) I don't know what the hell it is, in a way it's my own!

At first this particular variation of the palms up style felt weird, awkward - but once my muscles became familiar with the movements, I really liked the feel, the control.

Eventually I adopted the belay style as my own (with an ATC and 9.8mm rope) for TR/Sport. I am able to pay out rope and provide tension quickly and safely, although that second point appears to be debatable.

So after years of use- a handful of falls, and never a problem (except trying to pass a belay test at a new local gym!) I am still unconvinced that this palms up method is wrong, or dangerous!!

Ultimately, I think its worth the discussion and I'd like to hear more from those opinionated folks from both sides of the table.

Oh, one last thing.

Anyone notice the images of the brake hand on the original gri-gri showed a palms up illustration and the new gri-gri 2 show a palms down brake hand?

I thought it was interesting, even if you don't want to have anything to do with the silly things!

jktinst wrote: I understand that for legal and insurance purposes, they need to prescribe (I think that's the one you wanted, instead of "proscribe")

Yep. Typo.

jktinst wrote:However, once they are used to seeing you climbing there,

I'm not worried about a gym I'm a regular at, but I travel a lot for business and so I belay-test at a lot of gyms. Some are super-strict, if you don't do things exactly as they prescribe, what you do is proscribed. Others apply judgement -- if what you are doing is safe, you're ok. (This generally requires better, or at least, more educated staff.) And some... you pay your money and you do what you want... TR belay, TR climb, auto-belay climb, lead climb, lead belay, whatever. No test or anything. (Maybe they watch for unsafe behaviour?) I've even been to a gym where there were people belaying with a Munter hitch (though, they might have called it an Italian hitch).

levi patrick wrote:Oh, one last thing. Anyone notice the images of the brake hand on the original gri-gri showed a palms up illustration and the new gri-gri 2 show a palms down brake hand? I thought it was interesting, even if you don't want to have anything to do with the silly things!

Since I belay left handed (left on brake strand) I do palm up when using a grigri2 since i use the heal of my hand to hold the cam open when feeding rope so I use this method with an ATC as well. I maintain my brake hand below the device in both cases when I'm not feeding rope. Plus if need the holding power all you have to do is rotate your hand, while holding the rope, and it'll loop behind your hand so you'll put a half wrap of rope around the back of your hand. Takes less strength to hold the brake that way.

Eric LaRoche wrote:Who says you can't keep your hand below the device when your not paying out or taking up slack? You're going to be above when moving rope in PBUS as well. The only difference is when your taking up slack is in the slide which is a split second if you're fast.

Sure it can be a split second if you're fast. Even then it may be the wrong split second. And I'll see people using this method, if the climber is moving fast, leave the brake strand in non-brake position while they haul in two or three pulls worth of slack. Then it becomes more than a split-second.

And, I've seen some old-timers who are belaying with the brake-strand always parallel to the active strand (with a plate, not a Munter), I think with the idea that they'll quickly take the brake strand to brake position if their climber falls.

A good belayer can belay safely with BUS, or SSS -- but if you don't know the person is a good, solid, belayer, then I'm far happier seeing BUS than SSS (and with palm down), as the failure modes (common mistakes) are safer for me as a climber.

rgold wrote: I'm a firm believer in belay gloves, in which case the sensitive skin issue is moot, good or bad technique.

One more thing. I'm a believer in KISS

rgold wrote: I'm a firm believer in belay gloves, in which case the sensitive skin issue is moot, good or bad technique.

Yeah, me too. I want to spend my hand-skin on the climbing, not the belaying.

Eric Engberg wrote: One more thing. I'm a believer in KISS

with or without make-up? :)

in all seriousness, PBUS in most situations aside form munter and hip belay...