Tagline Rappel

20 kN wrote:I use a tag line all the time. Typically 9.4mm with 6mm. I rap on both strands just like two ropes, I just make sure to thread the anchor so that the 9.4mm is running through the anchor, not the 6mm. Beyond that, it's just a standard rap.

20kN, with the large difference in diameter of the two strands, are you relying on the EDK to prevent the tagline from slipping back through the anchor and thereby keep you from possibly decking? I don't think I would be comfortable not using a biner block with such a tagline rappel (maybe if the rope were threaded through relatively narrow quicklinks, but even then, I'd be nervous without a biner block).

Dave Carey wrote:I would be curious to hear the counter argument.

I'm assuming we're talking about tube-style devices designed to accommodate two strands ...

I believe the reason for the lower limit on the diameter is that cords with smaller diameters by themselves do not produce enough friction when running through the device to arrest a fall or perhaps even keep a rap under control.

With the single strand of fatter cord running through the device, there is in theory already 'enough' friction. Also incorporating the tag line only serves to add more friction (albeit not much based on the manufacturers guidance).

That's my belief. I've been known to be surprised sometimes at belay/rap device nuances. At the same time, I've rapped this way many times without a problem.

Caveat: Special care is needed that the fat cord isn't pulled down relative to the tag line during the rap - as is being pointed out in nearby comments by Rocky_Mtn_High. Uneven rope ends can be really bad.

bearbreeder wrote:Safety is more than "safety" For example with a single and a 6mm in the pack one can simul the easier pitches with a tibloc or two (doesnt work as well with doubles and ~8mm a tibloc is at its lower limit)

Yes, if there are easy approach pitches that needs to be roped up. But if you do have to rap the full length of the route (as in that's how you are supposed to get off), a pair of doubles is way faster than dealing w/ a 6mm tagline. It's obviously situational, but being able to get off faster (like when weather turns) is usually a larger safety margin than doing the easier stuff faster.

A pair of 8mm double is still more rope (not to mention independent) than a single 10mm & lighter than the 10mm+6mm combo.

20 kN wrote:I use a tag line all the time. Typically 9.4mm with 6mm. I rap on both strands just like two ropes, I just make sure to thread the anchor so that the 9.4mm is running through the anchor, not the 6mm.

That's what I do too...which really slows down on multiple rap, not to mention making it harder to pull than a pair of doubles & it can fuck you up if your main line is stuck.

bearbreeder wrote:Safety is more than "safety" For example with a single and a 6mm in the pack one can simul the easier pitches with a tibloc or two (doesnt work as well with doubles and ~8mm a tibloc is at its lower limit) Ive yet to see someone do belay swaps as fast with doubles as with a single ... They can be fast sure, but not as fast as a single Simuling the easier pitches and cutting some time of 12-15 belays can mean the difference in being caught in an afternoon rainstorms or the dark Now half ropes are "safer" in other ways But "safe" isnt always "safe" As to the weight ... Unless yr using the thinnest < 8mm half ropes its a wash ;)

I completely agree that safety is a holistic concept and that speed (or at least the ability to move fast when needed) often equals safety. That said, I have simuled with doubles (mountaineer's coil over shoulder plus bowline on bight short tie-in). Coiling two strands does take longer than one, but we're talking a few minutes at most. On the transitions, too, I'd wager it's no more than a 30 second per transition difference. All-in-all, I'd say that is a wash against the inevitable clusterf#@k that is a tagline rappel.

"john strand" wrote:I have no use for double ropes..never have,,never will. you fall on a single rope that is not rated as a single rope...if you clip both, then just use a single.

Double ropes are rated to hold a fall individually. That's the whole point of doubles. Twins are a different story.

reboot wrote:Jugging & hauling. Can't do either w/ a pair of doubles.

Great point. I have yet to get into big wall, but that makes perfect sense.

I'm still not hearing anything along the lines of "I've used doubles extensively but I still like taglines"...

Rocky_Mtn_High wrote: No particular reason why your alternative method won't work, though I don't understand why you would insist on rapping on the single thinner strand of the tagline, rather than simply rapping on both strands. In any case, the point of a tag line is to save as much weight as possible, IMO, so I'd prefer to bring a 6mm tagline, as 20kN suggested (in which case you need to pull the thinner tagline down to retrieve the rope). If I were all that concerned about my rope getting stuck and having to lead up on the tagline, then I'd simply use double ropes rather than a single rope and a relatively heavy tagline that is ">=8mm".

The reason why I am proposing to single rope rap on the tagline is that I have heard that if you double rope rap with two ropes of different diameters, the ropes will feed through the B-lay device at different rates, therefore causing your joining knot to change its position. If you single rope rap on the tagline with a carabiner block, this will not happen, and as a bonus you can lead up on your climbing rope if the ropes get stuck.

I would also be concerned about the EDK slipping through the chains if you simply tie your lead and tag lines together.

Relevant accident report:

http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/reepschnur-review

Slightly different situation than described above because the climber was single rope rappelling off of a jammed EDK, but it does go to show that an EDK can slip through the rappel rings in certain situations.

wfscot wrote: I have yet to get into big wall, but that makes perfect sense. I'm still not hearing anything along the lines of "I've used doubles extensively but I still like taglines"...

You may choose to haul a light pack on a hard free line when going for a team free ascent; I've certainly done that. But if I'm planning on rappelling more than a few rope length pitches, the tagline will be my 8mm double. 6mm tagline rap works, but it really is pretty annoying.

Alex Abrams wrote: The reason why I am proposing to single rope rap on the tagline is that I have heard that if you double rope rap with two ropes of different diameters, the ropes will feed through the B-lay device at different rates, therefore causing your joining knot to change its position..

For an 8mm tagline with lead lines 9.2-10mm, I can say that the tagline slips a tiny bit through your device, but not enough to cause a problem. I've used this setup a lot and I get maybe a few feet of slippage over the course of a long rappel. Less once the tagline loses its brand-new slippery feel. Maybe it's a more serious issue with a 6mm tagline, can't say. Have you tried it?

I'm not a huge fan of the proposed solution to this problem (always setting it up to pull the tagline so that the EDK or other knot stops the tagline from sliding). That means the knot has to be all the way up at the anchor, every rappel, instead of fed downward to where it clears edges, constrictions, etc. It also means that you're retrieving the tagline as you pull, not the lead line. If you pull the lead line and the tag line gets stuck coming down, you at least have a partial lead line to re-lead the pitch and free the snag.

The alternative method you're proposing looks funky, like it would introduce a lot of friction and make pulls harder, but I'd have to try it.

Rich Brereton wrote: I'm not a huge fan of the proposed solution to this problem (always setting it up to pull the tagline so that the EDK or other knot stops the tagline from sliding). That means the knot has to be all the way up at the anchor, every rappel, instead of fed downward to where it clears edges, constrictions, etc. It also means that you're retrieving the tagline as you pull, not the lead line. If you pull the lead line and the tag line gets stuck coming down, you at least have a partial lead line to re-lead the pitch and free the snag. The alternative method you're proposing looks funky, like it would introduce a lot of friction and make pulls harder, but I'd have to try it.

My proposed solution is that you always rig your carabiner-brake rappel so that you are single rope rappelling on a >= 8mm tagline, and pulling your lead line. That way, if the ropes get stuck, you can safely lead back up on your lead line to retrieve them.

Rich Brereton wrote: For an 8mm tagline with lead lines 9.2-10mm, I can say that the tagline slips a tiny bit through your device, but not enough to cause a problem. I've used this setup a lot and I get maybe a few feet of slippage over the course of a long rappel. Less once the tagline loses its brand-new slippery feel. Maybe it's a more serious issue with a 6mm tagline, can't say. Have you tried it?

I have not tried it, but even if what you're saying about the minimal slippage is true, I'm not convinced that tying a 6mm tagline together with a 9.8mm climbing rope using an EDK or Flemish Bend is bomber. I have simply tied the knot at home and it looks goofy, but obviously "looking goofy" is not very scientific. I also feel like I would have a hard time telling whether or not the knot is well dressed with a thin tagline and a conservatively sized rope. Perhaps someone can post an article with some pull tests of different size ropes with different size taglines tied together with different knots? An 8mm tagline tied to a 9.8mm rope seems more reasonable, but I still would not just go out to the crag and try this without seeing some data first, or without someone who had done it before and was willing to show me first.

Alex Abrams wrote: My proposed solution is that you always rig your carabiner-brake rappel so that you are single rope rappelling on a >= 8mm tagline, and pulling your lead line. That way, if the ropes get stuck, you can safely lead back up on your lead line to retrieve them.

For most of us, carabiner-brake and carabiner-block are two very different things.

aikibujin wrote: For most of us, carabiner-brake and carabiner-block are two very different things.

Thanks for the correction. I believe I should have said "carabiner block."

Alex Abrams wrote: I have not tried it, but even if what you're saying about the minimal slippage is true, I'm not convinced that tying a 6mm tagline together with a 9.8mm climbing rope using an EDK or Flemish Bend is bomber. I have simply tied the knot at home and it looks goofy, but obviously "looking goofy" is not very scientific. I also feel like I would have a hard time telling whether or not the knot is well dressed with a thin tagline and a conservatively sized rope. Perhaps someone can post an article with some pull tests of different size ropes with different size taglines tied together with different knots? An 8mm tagline tied to a 9.8mm rope seems more reasonable, but I still would not just go out to the crag and try this without seeing some data first, or without someone who had done it before and was willing to show me first.

Tie the EDK so that the smaller tag line would have to roll over the larger lead line and not vice versa.

The ropes don't feed at different rates..YOU control what they do.

I find the concept of rapping one rope when you carried 2 silly..at best.

double ropes suck..they are excuse at best...'less prone to rockfall damage" right..except you have 2 ropes exposed..not one.."full length raps" unless you carry a tag...how many times have you rapped a full 200' ?

doubles are rated 55kg for falls..pretty light climber.

Rocky_Mtn_High wrote: 20kN, with the large difference in diameter of the two strands, are you relying on the EDK to prevent the tagline from slipping back through the anchor and thereby keep you from possibly decking? I don't think I would be comfortable not using a biner block with such a tagline rappel (maybe if the rope were threaded through relatively narrow quicklinks, but even then, I'd be nervous without a biner block).

I am relying on my brain to keep the tagline from slipping. I watch the anchor, I watch the strand ends, and I watch my ATC to ensure the ropes feed through at equal speeds. But yes, the EDK as well. You can add a biner block (or rap ring block) if you want. However, I tested to see how much force it takes for the EDK to pull through a rap ring, and found it takes about 600 - 800 lbf. You have to double that since you're on two strands, and now you are looking at around 1200 lbf for the knot to pull through the ring, and that's just with one EDK. I have probably rapped about 200 pitches with this method (plus my partner) and I have never had the knot feed into the rings. However, if I were rapping on rings larger than the standard Fixe ring, I would add a biner block or tie the rope back to itself.

mountainproject.com/v/edk-d…

You won't deck..no reason for biner block....you wanna rap on a jammed knot ? I don't.

K.I.S.S.

where did this BS come from anyway ?

Hi,
I have rapped many pitches with ropes of different diameter over the years. Normally this doesn't seem to be a problem, however once when rapping down a slab in the French Alps from a chain/rings I had a massive amount of slippage (about 10m). The ropes were a 10.5mm and a 7.7mm (i.e. a single and half of a twin). I was I guess abseiling fast, and because it was a slab, had little weight on the reverso (which would have been the mk2) and the thinner rope flew through the device and chain.

This has left me a little nervous.

With ulta thin tag lines say 5mm there is also the issue of what happens if the 5mm rope is cut when not used with a carabiner block.

Has anyone tried the following: put both the rope and the 5mm cord through the same hole in the belay plate. I wonder if the might make it difficult for the thin line to slip. With singles now often thinner than they once were this might not be such a squash.

Alex Abrams wrote: The reason why I am proposing to single rope rap on the tagline is that I have heard that if you double rope rap with two ropes of different diameters, the ropes will feed through the B-lay device at different rates, therefore causing your joining knot to change its position.

The thinner rope has less friction, so the bias will be for the thick rope to stay stationary and the thin rope to move through the belay device. However, regardless of what method you use, yours or mine, you still need to thread the thick rope through the anchor, not the thin rope, in which case the joining knot will stop the tag line from feeding through the anchor. The only time this would be an issue is if you thread the anchor with the tag instead of the lead line, which is a bad idea regardless of what method you use to rap, or if the knot is too small and it gets pulled through the anchor. If the knot is too small for the anchor, add a biner block or tie the lead line back to itself as shown in your link. Even if you dont trust the knot and want to tie the lead line back to itself like shown in the photo for every rap, there is still absolutely no advantage to not rapping on the tag line in addition to the lead line.

David Coley wrote:Has anyone tried the following: put both the rope and the 5mm cord through the same hole in the belay plate. I wonder if the might make it difficult for the thin line to slip.

I haven't tried that ... need to think about it more first.

Another way to increase the friction on the skinny is to have a second "right-sized" rap device for it.

I've tried the DMM bugette for the skinny (6mm) paired with a regular ATC on the fat (~10mm). The bugette was extended higher than the ATC. The brake strand of the skinny went through the ATC as well.

Adding a little more detail, the fat rope was threaded through anchor. A little way down from the rap anchor, I moved the knot joining the cords down from the anchor so I could fairly well see if it moved either way during the remainder of the rap (better might have been - not sure - to have someone at the bottom loosely hold the strands, watching for relative movement).

It seemed to work.

I wouldn't cry if someone called this crazy talk. To fully depend on this, the rap devices need to be "right-sized" relative to each other and the cords. And it could mean fully depending on the skinny rope for your life depending on relative friction and how (or whether) the joining knot is captured up at the anchor as has been discussed.

Plus, we probably brought a tag line to cut down on overall weight. And now we're bringing a second rap device to make use of it. Wonder how a biner brake would work instead. Or, the bugette is just 27 grams.

I'm guessing that the effect of the two-device method would be a little more predictable than threading both strands through one slot of a tube-style device. And yet the two-device method takes some testing to insure the desired result. And if the testing was successful, future uses should be set up the same way with same diameter cords to get the expected results.

Edit to add:

I used a tag line a lot before I bought some double ropes. Now, I do find myself usually reaching for the doubles - rather than a single and the tag line - when I know I'll be doing a double-rope rap. On the other hand, if the need to do a double-rope rap would only be if bailing, I'm more likely to reach for the single and tag line since I prefer leading on a single.

One last thought - I had an experience once when each strand of double ropes was wetted differently (i.e., we'd kept one better covered during a rain). And so they stretched differently. While rapping on them, they tended to feed unevenly ... one would move through the device while the other would be stationary (normally threaded rap device). Very unsettling. And it makes me wonder if the idea of two different rap devices could play out similarly somehow.

20 kN wrote: The thinner rope has less friction, so the bias will be for the thick rope to stay stationary and the thin rope to move through the belay device. However, regardless of what method you use, yours or mine, you still need to thread the thick rope through the anchor, not the thin rope, in which case the joining knot will stop the tag line from feeding through the anchor. The only time this would be an issue is if you thread the anchor with the tag instead of the lead line, which is a bad idea regardless of what method you use to rap, or if the knot is too small and it gets pulled through the anchor. If the knot is too small for the anchor, add a biner block or tie the lead line back to itself as shown in your link. Even if you dont trust the knot and want to tie the lead line back to itself like shown in the photo for every rap, there is still absolutely no advantage to not rapping on the tag line in addition to the lead line.

I disagree with the notion that there is no advantage to not rappelling on both ropes. You are saying that, because of slippage, it is a bad idea to tie your lead and tagline together for a double rope rappel such that you are pulling the lead line, and I happen to agree with that. However, the ability to lead back up on your lead line to free a stuck rope is important to me. I know that some people have said the notion that you will have to lead back up is somewhat of an over-reaction. And maybe some of you guys are confident enough in your ability to pull the ropes cleanly every time when bad weather is coming in or it is getting dark that you will just rap on both ropes. But that is not me. Because if you rig your rappel to pull the tagline, and your ropes get stuck, and you have multiple 200' raps below you, and you and your partner are alone on the mountain, and there is bad weather coming in and it is getting dark, what are your options? Call for a rescue? Cut free the bit of tagline that you are holding in your hands and make many rappels leaving gear to get to the base? I would rather always know that I can lead back up on my lead line to free the stuck rope, but it is a personal thing I think. Although these guys ran into the above situation, and obviously they know more than I do:

http://c498469.r69.cf2.rackcdn.com/2005/14_cordes_trango_aaj2005.pdf

Anyway, for me, the above logic leads me to conclude that the best way to rig a tagline rappel is to thread a carabiner-block rappel such that you are single-rope rappelling on your >= 8mm tagline (so that you are following the manufacturers recommendations on what diameter rope is appropriate to use with your B-lay device), and pulling your lead line. I realize that some people have asked "Why rap on one rope when you have 2?" But for me, the above logic makes sense. And you could use the above system and rap on both ropes, but then since the rappel is rigged to pull the lead line, slippage would occur, correct? So it is better to only rap on the tagline in that situation. But it is a personal thing, there are definitely reasons why tying your ropes together or rigging a carabiner block to pull the tagline could be better.

Also, thanks for posting the link to your tests 20 kN, that was definitely helpful too.

I am definitely still open to criticism of my ideas.

Alex Abrams wrote:... such that you are single-rope rappelling on your >= 8mm tagline (so that you are following the manufacturers recommendations on what diameter rope is appropriate to use with your B-lay device), ....

There are good rap devices rated for cords below 8mm (e.g., DMM bugette). Even so, for me this really boils down to whether I'm comfortable depending on my 6mm tag line for my life.