Tagline Rappel

When do you guys use a tagline rappel? Do you use it on slabby, vertical, and/or overhanging terrain? When you are planning on rappelling, or hoping to walk off and bringing the tagline in case something goes wrong? When the rappel anchor is on a large ledge or not? On rock, ice, or both? At the crag or in the alpine? What technique do you use to join and pull the ropes?

I bought a 60m 6mm tagline when I was going to climb Cannon (Whitney-Gilman Ridge). We were planning on walking off, but I wanted to have a second rope in case we needed to bail. It stayed in the pack the whole time and we walked off of the route. Since then, I have contemplated using it on various long rock routes. The only time I actually used it was one day climbing at Roger's Slide, Lake George, Adirondacks. The route was Little Finger Direct, a long slab climb. We used this technique to join the ropes:

Tagline Rappel Technique

Except we tied the tagline to the locker instead of to the climbing rope. We did a single rope rappel on the climbing rope, and pulled the tagline. On the first rappel, there was so much friction in the system that my partner and I had to attach prussiks to the tagline and yard on them with both of our full body weights to get the ropes to pull. Previous to that, my partner had jugged the rope to make sure everything was rigged properly and that nothing was caught, and everything looked fine. So I presume the issue was just friction from the low angle nature of the route. The other 3 rappels that we made that day all pulled without issue.

I have thought about using the tagline a few times since then because I usually prefer to climb with a single rope, but my concern is that if the rope gets stuck beyond retrieval, and my partner and I are alone on the route, we will only have the tagline to lead back up on and free the stuck rope, which is obviously not ideal. However, it seems that lots of really experienced climbers use this technique and recommend setting up the rappel to pull the tagline, i.e.

cascadeclimbers.com/article…

Is there any way to mitigate the risk of a stuck rope, or should I just use double ropes if I am concerned about that?

I'll jump in- I always rap both lead and tag line together..always. You carried it, use it.
Tie knots in both ropes, but not together. pull either and alternate on multiple raps.

getting the rope stuck happens to everyone sometimes, you learn how avoid hangs ups through experience only..and sometimes it still happens.

IMO having to "use the tag line" is the most overeaction thing I can think of..you just don't do it.

A great option that I have fallen for is to use twin/double ropes in general where you can clip one or both. I much prefer it for many reasons (able to use more QDs vs. ADs, less prone to rope getting cut, able to escape safer and quicker and of course light).

But, if your worried about rope management of two ropes due to lots of hanging belays etc., you could carry a standard rope and coil a twin/double rope in your pack or trail it and then attach as you did in the picture. I would not be comfortable rappelling with two different diameter ropes though, so in that case I believe you would be best with the knotted method you linked to.

At the same time, with the twin/double rated ropes, you could also just climb on a single rope and put the other in the bag...this scares me personally a little simply because the ropes are thin and could be more prone to getting cut, but the ropes rated individually for falls. I have done it though for simul-climbing an easy route in the Bugaboos...it worked great.

One natural large concern with the biner trick is the biner getting caught in a crack/constriction during the pull. So there are definitely times where this is risky and might take some careful rope threading by the last rappeller or might simply not be a solution/

But bottom line is that with the twin/double rated ropes, if the rope gets stuck, the "tag-line" is rated for climbing falls so it is a safer option.

My discovery of this ropes this year has really made a difference for me...once bailing in lightning and another using it as a tag line as you mentioned on a 200 ft climb we did as a single pitch.

Never had any issue with ropes of diff diameters..as long as the tagline is static !

I have a 75m x 7mm Sterling tag line, which I bring on every multi-pitch climb I do unless (a) there's a nice walk-off, and bailing is unlikely, or (b) I am certain I can rappel the route with just my lead line (common in areas with bolted belays). The tag line tangles very easily and is kind of shitty to deal with in high winds; this is why Colin Haley suggests pulling the tag line instead of the lead line every time.

The only time I would not use the tag line for a rappel, after having hauled the tagline up the route with me, would be if/when there was a single short rappel to deal with, e.g. getting down from a gendarme on a ridge.

john strand wrote:I'll jump in- I always rap both lead and tag line together..always. You carried it, use it. Tie knots in both ropes, but not together. pull either and alternate on multiple raps. getting the rope stuck happens to everyone sometimes, you learn how avoid hangs ups through experience only..and sometimes it still happens. IMO having to "use the tag line" is the most overeaction thing I can think of..you just don't do it.

Would you say that it is safe to tie together a 6mm static tagline with a 9.8mm lead line and rap off of it? If so, which knot(s) would you use? And if not, which respective diameters for the lead and tag lines would be appropriate, and which knot(s) would you use?

Another technique that might work is to rig your rappel with the carabiner block method linked to in my original post, but tie it so that you are pulling the lead line. That way, if your rope gets stuck, you can climb back up on your lead line to free it. I feel like I would only feel comfortable doing this on a tagline >= 8mm in diameter because you would have to single rope rap on the tagline. Thoughts?

I bought a tagline early in my climbing career and used it twice (successfully) before I purchased doubles. Since then, the tagline has just sat in the bottom of my climbing bin.

Maybe I'm just not getting it but for me, the benefits of doubles (inherent backup when leading, better rope drag management, always have a dynamic rope to chase a stuck rope, no rappel weirdness) far outweigh the slight advantages of a tagline (easier rope management while climbing, which is slight once you get used to doubles).

Is there anyone that has climbed more than a few times with doubles yet continues to use a tagline? If so, what's your reasoning?

wfscot wrote:I bought a tagline early in my climbing career and used it twice (successfully) before I purchased doubles. Since then, the tagline has just sat in the bottom of my climbing bin. Maybe I'm just not getting it but for me, the benefits of doubles (inherent backup when leading, better rope drag management, always have a dynamic rope to chase a stuck rope, no rappel weirdness) far outweigh the slight advantages of a tagline (easier rope management while climbing, which is slight once you get used to doubles). Is there anyone that has climbed more than a few times with doubles yet continues to use a tagline? If so, what's your reasoning?

I definitely agree that double ropes are the safer choice for long routes, especially when full length rappels are required. However, I am cheap and a single + tagline is what I have to work with right now, so I am curious if there is any way to make rappels safer than with the method I used once before. Also for now I like the simplicity of leading on a single, although I have lead on doubles a few times before. One day I will probably invest in a nice pair of doubles and then there won't be any issue with full length rappels.

wfscot wrote:Is there anyone that has climbed more than a few times with doubles yet continues to use a tagline? If so, what's your reasoning?

Jugging & hauling. Can't do either w/ a pair of doubles.

I have no use for double ropes..never have,,never will. you fall on a single rope that is not rated as a single rope...if you clip both, then just use a single.In 35+ years, i have used doubles maybe 3x..maybe

I have used a 6mm tied figure 8 with an 10.5mm..iffy. Now i almost always use a 7mm with an 10mm lead..never a problem.

I really don't like any of the block techniques i have seen either

This is slightly off topic, but I have been meaning to ask: what is the thinnest tag line you would consider using? Since the goal is reducing weight while facilitating a full-length rap, why not, for example, use a 4-mil tagline (with a biner blocker on the main rope)? I assume the minimum diameter limit for a tag line is based on one's comfort level with the strength of the knot used to tie together two lines of very different diameters, and also how squirrelly a thin tag line can be in any kind of wind. Thanks.

john strand wrote:I have no use for double ropes..never have,,never will. you fall on a single rope that is not rated as a single rope...if you clip both, then just use a single.In 35+ years, i have used doubles maybe 3x..maybe I have used a 6mm tied figure 8 with an 10.5mm..iffy. Now i almost always use a 7mm with an 10mm lead..never a problem.

If you don't need to jug or haul w/ the tag line, a pair of double will be safer/lighter for both climbing & rappelling.

Rocky_Mtn_High wrote:This is slightly off topic, but I have been meaning to ask: what is the thinnest tag line you would consider using? Since the goal is reducing weight while facilitating a full-length rap, why not, for example, use a 4-mil tagline (with a biner blocker on the main rope)? I assume the minimum diameter limit for a tag line is based on one's comfort level with the strength of the knot used to tie together two lines of very different diameters, and also how squirrelly a thin tag line can be in any kind of wind.

I've tried 5mm, 6mm and 7mmm tag lines. I've settled on 6mm.

Wind isn't so much an issue if pulling the tag line. One way to realize that: first person to rap ties free end of tag line to themselves. As they rap, second person is feeding out the tag line as needed. Once down they reel in the remainder. Later, when pulling the tag line, most or all of the tag line will be down before the fat rope comes free of the anchor.

Strength is a factor but I think not as much as how much harder it can be to pull down the smaller diameter tag line. It doesn't take much rock-rubbing-on-fat-rope to make it scare-y hard to get enough grip to pull down on the tag line. A 5 mm has to be gripped roughly around half again as hard as a 6mm which is already ~3 times as hard as a 10mm. Well, maybe not quite that bad but you get the idea.

I use a tag line all the time. Typically 9.4mm with 6mm. I rap on both strands just like two ropes, I just make sure to thread the anchor so that the 9.4mm is running through the anchor, not the 6mm. Beyond that, it's just a standard rap. I see absolutely no reason in rapping down on one strand instead of both. There is absolutely no safety advantage (a disadvantage actually) to only using one strand. It's also easier to pull the rope if you join the two together with an EDK instead of the the technique described in your link. With the technique in the link, you run a much higher chance of snagging the dynamic rope, leaving only the tag line in your hands. In cases where the EDK knot will not act as a stopper knot at the anchor, then the technique shown in the photo is appropriate. Just make sure that you watch the ends of the strands since the rope diameters are so different.

reboot wrote: If you don't need to jug or haul w/ the tag line, a pair of double will be safer/lighter for both climbing & rappelling.

In what ways? 2 8.5mm are lighter than a 6/10mm combo I don't think so..and as far as safer..questionable at best

i'll take the simplicity and safety of a single line

john strand wrote: In what ways? 2 8.5mm are lighter than a 6/10mm combo I don't think so..and as far as safer..questionable at best i'll take the simplicity and safety of a single line

I think that it is safer to make full-length rappels with double ropes because if your ropes get stuck while pulling them, you still have a rope that is rated to hold leader falls on its own to climb back up on and free the stuck rope.

In terms of climbing, it probably depends highly on the situation. Perhaps double ropes are safer if the route has lots of sharp flakes and edges that could potentially cut the rope. If you use double ropes, each rope is running on a different path, which makes it less like that both of them will get cut in a fall. Also double ropes are probably safer if you are swinging sharp things around.

Safety is more than "safety"

For example with a single and a 6mm in the pack one can simul the easier pitches with a tibloc or two (doesnt work as well with doubles and ~8mm a tibloc is at its lower limit)

Ive yet to see someone do belay swaps as fast with doubles as with a single ... They can be fast sure, but not as fast as a single

Simuling the easier pitches and cutting some time of 12-15 belays can mean the difference in being caught in an afternoon rainstorms or the dark

Now half ropes are "safer" in other ways

But "safe" isnt always "safe"

As to the weight ... Unless yr using the thinnest < 8mm half ropes its a wash

;)

Does anyone have any thoughts on the alternate technique that I mentioned?

Buy a tagline that you are comfortable rappelling on as a single rope. For me this would be something >= 8mm in diameter. Set up the "carabiner brake" method linked to in my original post, except rigged to pull the climbing rope. Single rope rap on the tagline to the next anchor. Untie stopper knots, pull climbing rope. Repeat until you are at the base. This way, if the ropes get hung up you can safely lead back up on your climbing rope to free the stuck ropes.

Thoughts? Any reason why I shouldn't do this?

bearbreeder wrote:Safety is more than "safety" ;)

Yes. A cookie cutter view doesn't always fit so well in this complex climbing world. :-)

Alex Abrams wrote:Does anyone have any thoughts on the alternate technique that I mentioned? Buy a tagline that you are comfortable rappelling on as a single rope. For me this would be something >= 8mm in diameter. Set up the "carabiner brake" method linked to in my original post, except rigged to pull the climbing rope. Single rope rap on the tagline to the next anchor. Untie stopper knots, pull climbing rope. Repeat until you are at the base. This way, if the ropes get hung up you can safely lead back up on your climbing rope to free the stuck ropes. Thoughts? Any reason why I shouldn't do this?

No particular reason why your alternative method won't work, though I don't understand why you would insist on rapping on the single thinner strand of the tagline, rather than simply rapping on both strands. In any case, the point of a tag line is to save as much weight as possible, IMO, so I'd prefer to bring a 6mm tagline, as 20kN suggested (in which case you need to pull the thinner tagline down to retrieve the rope). If I were all that concerned about my rope getting stuck and having to lead up on the tagline, then I'd simply use double ropes rather than a single rope and a relatively heavy tagline that is ">=8mm".

The reason I see and would like to hear why people are doing other wise is:

blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

The diameter is 7.7 - 11 mm for example. If you're rapping on a < 7.7 mm line, it is not as designed. To "follow the rules" would require a second belay device such as smart or microjul etc. Perhaps people are not "following the rules" of the device. As was pointed out there are no cookie cutters in climbing so that is fine and I do not really believe in rules either and could believe there is enough friction for rappelling but never tried. And perhaps the diameter recommendation is for leading and falling where forces are higher.

The belay device recommendation is why I choose to rap on the climbing side at least and is also why I do not rap with both strands in the device. Seems like a good idea to me to follow manufactures advice which I personally believe falls in the cookie cutter land.

I would be curious to hear the counter argument.