Backing up rappells: Who does it?

eli poss wrote: On the other hand, accidents might make climbing less popular and, in the long run, benefit the real climbers. That is, if such accidents don't fuck up our access (I'm looking at you Signal Mountain).

That's pretty fucked up, Eli.

Before you get too far down this train of thought that accidents might be a good thing as long as they don't happen to "real" climbers, consider there may be others who might put you in that category.

No one deserves to be hurt or killed in an accident, "real" climber or not, and injury or loss of life to any human being should be MUCH higher on all of our priority lists than loss of access.

eli poss wrote: This. Unfortunately (or, in the case of damsel in distress, fortunately) many more people are able to climb than those able to unfuck themselves. It's only a matter of years before we start seeing a significant increase in accidents. On the other hand, accidents might make climbing less popular and, in the long run, benefit the real climbers. That is, if such accidents don't fuck up our access (I'm looking at you Signal Mountain).

Uhhh wait, are you a "real climber"? Am I?

csproul wrote: Uhhh wait, are you a "real climber"? Am I?

THIS is rock climbing climbing.com/blog/real-rock…

Disaster Franklin wrote:I ran through the anchor and self rescue books at my local crag because I knew one day I would be the hero that sweeps in to save the damsel in distress that got her rope stuck halfway down levitation 29.

Rapping L29 with two 60m ropes was pretty straightforward and little chance of getting ropes stuck. I suppose an epic might ensue of one tries to rap it with a single rope or two shorter ropes. For these raps, we definitely knotted the ends and used leg wrap more than once.
Dream of Wild Turkeys on the other hand ... got our rope stuck, had a small epic, finished in the dark, and missed my flight out. But that's a story for another time. :)

many more people are able to climb than those able to unfuck themselves. It's only a matter of years before we start seeing a significant increase in accidents. On the other hand, accidents might make climbing less popular and, in the long run, benefit the real climbers. That is, if such accidents don't fuck up our access (I'm looking at you Signal Mountain).

This reminds me of the time I was climbing in black velvet canyon a few years ago. Maybe some of you remember the internet shitstorm that ensued. I was pretty new to the sport around then, and had just gotten really into trad.

Meanwhile, down the canyon on Epinephrine... two novice climbers decide they're too thirsty to carry on, and only brought one 60m rope. Guess they didn't want to leave pro behind for bail anchors, or maybe they're just total assholes that think a Grade IV 5.9 is = the 5.9 TR at the gym.

Helicopter rescue, extremely dangerous to hover a chopper next to a cliff face. The helicopter drops them off in the parking lot for BVC, and they hit the strip later that night. They did get some great shots from the chimney pitch on their blog, "VISIONQUEST 2012!"

visqst2012.wordpress.com/20…

I wonder how they backup their rappels?

Moral of the story: Learn to unfuck yourself, or you can go fuck yourself.

S. Neoh wrote: Rapping L29 with two 60m ropes was pretty straightforward and little chance of getting ropes stuck. I suppose an epic might ensue of one tries to rap it with a single rope or two shorter ropes. For these raps, we definitely knotted the ends and used leg wrap more than once. Dream of Wild Turkeys on the other hand ... got our rope stuck, had a small epic, finished in the dark, and missed my flight out. But that's a story for another time. :)

Yeah, you're actually right. It was just the first route that popped into my head. I haven't done Wild Turkeys but got rope stuck pretty bad on I'm thinking triassic sands maybe? Windy day in the canyon. For you candy-ass grigri lovers, I like this trick for unsticking stuck ropes. You just hip thrust up and pull slack through the grigri until you're barely on your tippy toes and that stuck rope is tight as a bowstring. Really cinch that sucker down. Then suddenly pop that grigri open and send a massive oscillation up the stuck rope to flick it out of it's pinchpoint at somewhere around mach 3. It's totally counter-intuitive but it's like colt 45. It works every time.

Maybe not the best for people using PAS or dyneema for personal anchors on hanging belays. Use the other end of your stuck-ass rope instead.

Anyone try/have heard/understand this technique?

brianjames wrote:Little bit scared to ask this question in fear of getting flamed, but here it goes and maybe and I can get a nice response. About a year ago I was going to rap down a single pitch route (easiest and probably safest way by far to the get to the base of the route). The rope had been flaked out beforehand and center of the rope was properly aligned with the anchor. The roped was tossed down and ends hit the ground (barely as this was around a 30 meter route). I was about to start rappelling when another person at the base not of my party yelled that the rope was knotted on one of the strands about 2/3rds the way down. Needless to say I pull the rope up and took out the knot. If that person had not been there and I rappelled down and got stuck at that knot what would have been my options?

I had almost exact same thing happen 5 hours ago. I was building top rope anchor on a 55m route. Toss my rope for rappel, it tangled 2/3's down (yes I flaked it). I just rapped down, slowly engaged my kleimheist a foot above it, was happy with it locking properly, then went hands free to untangle the rope and finish the rap.

brianjames wrote:I was about to start rappelling when another person...yelled that the rope was knotted on one of the strands about 2/3rds the way down...If...I rappelled down and got stuck at that knot what would have been my options?

It shouldn't be even a slight problem, whether or not you know about the knot ahead of time. You stop when you see the knot, throw on a bunch of leg raps, which safely frees your hands, pull up the rope, undo the knot, and continue on.

If you are using a rap backup friction knot you can use that to go hands free too. The leg wraps are a more foolproof solution but nowadays most folks would go with the rap backup.

(Things will be trickier if you are so inattentive you don't notice the knot until it hits your brake hand...)

Two further things about leg wraps:

1. After wrapping three times or so, lift the hanging portion of the rope over your opposite shoulder and down your back. This way the hanging rope pulls up rather than down on the leg wraps and so is not trying to unwind them.

2. To get out of the leg wraps, get your brake hand in position on the rope and fully clamped, drop the loop off your shoulder with the non-brake hand, and with both hands on the brake strand, unwind the wraps entirely by spinning leg motions---no hands involved in this.

rgold wrote:The leg wraps are a more foolproof solution...

See this is what I still dont get. Assuming its all set up right of course, what about the autoblock and/or prussik could fail? Again, assuming its set up properly, which applies to everything in climbing and in life, so lets eliminate that variable from the discussion. Also, couldnt the leg loop trick potentially come undone? Unless the double or triple fishermans used to connect your autoblock cord comes untied I dont see how the autoblock/prussik/klemheist could come undone.

But thats why I ask, because maybe Im still wrong despite my best mental efforts to picture everything.

csproul wrote: Uhhh wait, are you a "real climber"? Am I?

if it isn't naked free-solo then it isn't climbing.

on a more serious note, if you're a real climber, you probably know it. if you aren't a real climber, you probably don't know it, which makes you all the more annoying.

eli poss wrote: if it isn't naked free-solo then it isn't climbing. on a more serious note, if you're a real climber, you probably know it. if you aren't a real climber, you probably don't know it, which makes you all the more annoying.

Well, I guess I'm annoying then, 'cause despite climbing longer than you've been alive, I'm still not sure what a "real" climber is. Maybe you can enlighten all of us?

johnnymuir wrote: See this is what I still dont get. Assuming its all set up right of course, what about the autoblock and/or prussik could fail? Again, assuming its set up properly, which applies to everything in climbing and in life, so lets eliminate that variable from the discussion.

But "assuming its all set up right of course" is exactly how a lot of climbing accidents happen. Setting everything up right does indeed apply to climbing and life, and the vast array of accidents in both those activities testifies that people are not capable of doing this 100% of the time.

So: among methods that work perfectly "when everything is done right," the one that is "more foolproof" is the one with fewer failure modes, i.e. the one that offers fewer ways of not doing it right.

If you read what various authors say about maneuvers with a back-up prussik, you'll frequently see them recommending tying a "catastrophe knot," which is something to back up the prussik if it fails for some reason. Why would they be recommending this if failure wasn't a possibility worth considering?

Some failure modes for standard rap backups: the autoblock/prussik can be too loose to lock, or not have enough turns for the ropes being used. The autoblock/prussik can be positioned in a way that seem ok, but raising a leg or twisting away from the brake hand side can cause it to hit the device and release. The autoblock prussik can be installed on a buckle leg loop in a way that releases the buckle so that the knot comes free from the leg loop. These are the three main things to avoid; perhaps there are others?

On the other hand, there really isn't even a theoretical way for the leg wraps to go wrong if you drop the hanging rope over a shoulder. Even if you don't do that, the turns won't unwrap unless you try to make them unwrap by spinning your leg, although the wraps may shift down your leg, which is uncomfortable and worrying.

Perhaps the most dangerous moment with leg wraps occurs when you unwrap the rope. I described a method that has both hands braking when the wraps come off; I suppose one could mess this up, but this is a far more self-evident type of failure.

Frankly, even with an autoblock installed, if I'm going to be hanging around and messing with tangles and knots, I'll probably throw on the leg wraps as well. It takes maybe four seconds.

Take 5 seconds and back it up.

the biggest problem is folks who fail to test their system (including the friction knot) before taking off their safety .... many folks simply slap on the autoblock and dont weight the system fully ... this can lead to what happened in the video that was posted

your primary and best line of defense on rappel is always proper technique ... keep both hands below the device and tell yourself if you let go you die ...

even with a backup its best to do the leg raps or a quick knot in the line if yr stopping to go hands free ... we would never trust someone elses life to a single friction knot without a backup, why trust your own to one if you can help it

a backup is just that ... for "oh shiet" situations, it shouldnt mean that one can go hands free all the time, swing all over the place, post cool pics on fbook, and get into senseless MP arguments while dangling on that backup

i rappel on a smart alot myself .... every now and then ill do a rappel on a biner brake just to keep in practice and to remind myself that no brake hand means death

even i find myself getting a bit lazy when using a smart as you trick yourself subconsciously into thinking its "hands free"

;)

csproul wrote: Well, I guess I'm annoying then, 'cause despite climbing longer than you've been alive, I'm still not sure what a "real" climber is. Maybe you can enlighten all of us?

sorry I wasn't clear. I'd say anybody climbing that long is a real climber.

I'm surprised by how many people use an autoblock. I don't but I probably should. I throw knots in the end of my rope though.

With a backup hitch, even "testing the system" can be done wrong ...

One can get a false sense of security by tensioning the backup hitch before the test. Because it can lock up that way but not in a surprise loss of control when the backup hitch has been kept loose for ease of sliding down the rope. I've seen this happen in backyard testing without working too hard at it.

rgold wrote: But "assuming its all set up right of course" is exactly how a lot of climbing accidents happen. Setting everything up right does indeed apply to climbing and life, and the vast array of accidents in both those activities testifies that people are not capable of doing this 100% of the time. So: among methods that work perfectly "when everything is done right," the one that is "more foolproof" is the one with fewer failure modes, i.e. the one that offers fewer ways of not doing it right. If you read what various authors say about maneuvers with a back-up prussik, you'll frequently see them recommending tying a "catastrophe knot," which is something to back up the prussik if it fails for some reason. Why would they be recommending this if failure wasn't a possibility worth considering? Some failure modes for standard rap backups: the autoblock/prussik can be too loose to lock, or not have enough turns for the ropes being used. The autoblock/prussik can be positioned in a way that seem ok, but raising a leg or twisting away from the brake hand side can cause it to hit the device and release. The autoblock prussik can be installed on a buckle leg loop in a way that releases the buckle so that the knot comes free from the leg loop. These are the three main things to avoid; perhaps there are others? On the other hand, there really isn't even a theoretical way for the leg wraps to go wrong if you drop the hanging rope over a shoulder. Even if you don't do that, the turns won't unwrap unless you try to make them unwrap by spinning your leg, although the wraps may shift down your leg, which is uncomfortable and worrying. Perhaps the most dangerous moment with leg wraps occurs when you unwrap the rope. I described a method that has both hands braking when the wraps come off; I suppose one could mess this up, but this is a far more self-evident type of failure. Frankly, even with an autoblock installed, if I'm going to be hanging around and messing with tangles and knots, I'll probably throw on the leg wraps as well. It takes maybe four seconds.

Im getting it a bit more now. But it seems like you have an affinity for the method you originally learned, and have a disdain for the "modern" methods. Just my 2c judging from the non-emotional text of the internet.

1. The proper amount of turns was installed (would your leg loop work with just one wrap? Then give the autblock the same fair shot). 2. The autoblock will not rise up into the rap device if the rap is extended. 3. Autoblock should be on belay loop anyhow, not leg loop.

So there. All human error eliminated, and we seem to be left with just as reliable a system, dont we? In the same way that folks asked if an autblock ever saved a life, well, Id like to know when a PROPERLY SET UP autoblock has failed. And I will stick foot into my mouth when shown.

Bill Lawry wrote:With a backup hitch, even "testing the system" can be done wrong ... One can get a false sense of security by tensioning the backup hitch before the test. Because it can lock up that way but not in a surprise loss of control when the backup hitch has been kept loose for ease of sliding down the rope. I've seen this happen in backyard testing without working too hard at it.

But that means it wasnt set up properly. You just said it, "kept loose for ease of sliding" thats incorrect and of course it isnt going to work.

johnnymuir wrote:But that means it wasnt set up properly. You just said it, "kept loose for ease of sliding" thats incorrect and of course it isnt going to work.

I suspect you are misunderstanding the purpose of a test. A good test has everything configured just as it would be when you most need the rig to work.

Edit to add: One way to keep from getting confused in this thread (maybe I'm confused) is to be explicit about the purpose of the backup:

A) The backup is for protection under unanticipated loss of rap control.
or
B) The backup is to be able to consciously go hands free in the middle of a rap.

My post above regarded 'A'

Bill Lawry wrote: I suspect you are misunderstanding the purpose of a test. A good test has everything configured just as it would be when you most need the rig to work. Edit to add: One way to keep from getting confused in this thread (maybe I'm confused) is to be explicit about the purpose of the backup: A) The backup is for protection under loss of rap control. or B) The backup is to be able to consciously go hands free in the middle of a rap. My post above regarded 'B'

Perhaps I am. I thought the idea was more to test the system as it is going to be used, not how things will react in the worst possible scenario.