Backing up rappells: Who does it?

When using an ATC I almost always use a klemheist or autoblock (honestly can't remember the difference) on the brake strand connected to my leg loop.

I've switched to using a Mega Jul for a while now. In my experience this device automatically holds the rope at least as well as a autoblock backup, so I don't use a backup with it.

For really long raps I'll flip the Mega Jul around to "ATC" mode and then use a backup as it takes less energy since I don't have to hold the Jul open with my other hand.

rgold wrote:I've heard of perhaps two instances in which a backup prevented a fall, at least one of which was a beginner who should have been belayed. At the same time, I've heard of many more than two incidents caused by the misuse of backups by relatively experienced people who thought they could let go of the brake hand with impunity and found that their autoblock didn't work, either because it had gotten too loose, or didn't have enough wraps, or because they hadn't extended their device, raised their leg, and the autoblock released when it hit the rap device. There is nothing scientific about my sample.

I wanted to re-count a story. My group has just finished doing the first rappel into Pine Creek canyon, a canyoneering slot canyon in Zion NP. It is a high water year, and the first drop does right into a pool of water that is up to your armpits. The water almost never sees the sun and is in the 50 degree range for temperature. We have wetsuits.

As I am collecting the rope after pulling it, another party throws there rope down and sets up rappel. I have the rope coiled over my neck at this point and I am about to leave when I hear the guy at the top explaining how to rappel. I look up, 2 guys with shorts on. The leader is rigging a Prussik to help ensure the safety of the first guy who apparently doesnt know how to rappel. I decide to hang around at the bottom to make sure he can get off since he is new and basically if will be a swimming/floating on your back disconnect.

As it turns out, this guy has major problems rappeling with the prussik. And then he gets into the water.... wow, if I hadn't been there I shudder to think of what could have happened. He struggled for a while before I swam back in and end up having to cut the Prussik off.

Their group joined up with us through the rest of the canyon and we gave them some fleece in between water sections.

At the end, when there was no more swimming, the guys tried to heat up in the sun before the final drop (it was dry). They were borderline hypothermic going through that canyon... it was quite scary.

All that to say that that guy could have been killed by that Prussik. Not a normal situation I know, but still quite a story regarding "backing up" the rappel.

Pete Spri wrote: I wanted to re-count a story. My group has just finished doing the first rappel into Pine Creek canyon, a canyoneering slot canyon in Zion NP. It is a high water year, and the first drop does right into a pool of water that is up to your armpits. The water almost never sees the sun and is in the 50 degree range for temperature. We have wetsuits. As I am collecting the rope after pulling it, another party throws there rope down and sets up rappel. I have the rope coiled over my neck at this point and I am about to leave when I hear the guy at the top explaining how to rappel. I look up, 2 guys with shorts on. The leader is rigging a Prussik to help ensure the safety of the first guy who apparently doesnt know how to rappel. I decide to hang around at the bottom to make sure he can get off since he is new and basically if will be a swimming/floating on your back disconnect. As it turns out, this guy has major problems rappeling with the prussik. And then he gets into the water.... wow, if I hadn't been there I shudder to think of what could have happened. He struggled for a while before I swam back in and end up having to cut the Prussik off. Their group joined up with us through the rest of the canyon and we gave them some fleece in between water sections. At the end, when there was no more swimming, the guys tried to heat up in the sun before the final drop (it was dry). They were borderline hypothermic going through that canyon... it was quite scary. All that to say that that guy could have been killed by that Prussik. Not a normal situation I know, but still quite a story regarding "backing up" the rappel.

Yes, if you use a technique incorrectly, you can get in trouble. Inexperience can cause problems! (the experienced guy should have gone down first and given a fireman's belay.) Operator error.

He should have read this from MP, first:
mountainproject.com/v/use-a…

T Howes wrote:I occasionally back up my rappels, but most often I just go for it. I most commonly back it up if I'm simul-rappelling (which isn't often). If I do back one up I'll use a short cordelette and girth hitch my leg loop (right side) and wrap the rope 3-4 times and then reattach to my leg loop with a carabiner (non locking).

The new buckles that don't require doubling back can and do release when loaded in the manner which your arrangement would load a leg loop. I forget which manufacturer released this warning. You can clip to the bit of webbing that runs from the leg loop to the belay loop instead, but it's supposed to be safer to extend the autobloc ABOVE your belay device, as the belay device will press down on the top of the autobloc, preventing it from hitching tight and arresting a fall.

Also it sounds like you're describing a 3 or 4 wrap autobloc hitch. Is that what you're doing or are you just wrapping your cord around a few times?

You might wanna invest in a dedicated prussik cord or loop. The sterling hollowblock is kinda cool, because it's made from aramid, but I still find that they slip unless a 4-wrap prussik is used, and it's kinda hard to use a 4-wrap because the sterling isn't very long.

The PMI sewn prussik cord we use in the rope access industry is bomber. As far as I can tell, it's actually just <11mm dynamic rope with sewn loops at the end.

Concerning the subject of this thread.

I only back up rappels when I have a reason to believe I'll have to negotiate an edge, if it's windy and chossy, or if there are other parties above me. Or if I get a bad vibe. Otherwise I don't bother. These days I'm mostly doing single pitch sport so I just get lowered instead.

I don't know if this was mentioned so I'll go ahead.

I extend my rappel device using a PAS. If I didn't have a PAS, I would use a sling, and girth hitch it in the same way. It makes rappelling more comfortable for me, so that's what I do. However, I'm aware that when I do this, I'm putting myself completely on that PAS and there is no redundancy. Whilst I should regularly inspect my PAS for wear, I don't check it before every rappel. Having an autoblock on a locking biner to my belay loop, effectively gives me some redundancy, so that if my PAS were to fail (unlikely, I'll grant you), I still have the autoblock on my belay loop.

Mathias wrote:I don't know if this was mentioned so I'll go ahead. I extend my rappel device using a PAS. If I didn't have a PAS, I would use a sling, and girth hitch it in the same way. It makes rappelling more comfortable for me, so that's what I do. However, I'm aware that when I do this, I'm putting myself completely on that PAS and there is no redundancy. Whilst I should regularly inspect my PAS for wear, I don't check it before every rappel. Having an autoblock on a locking biner to my belay loop, effectively gives me some redundancy, so that if my PAS were to fail (unlikely, I'll grant you), I still have the autoblock on my belay loop.

I basically do the same with with a double length sling knotted in the middle. One end g-hitched to both aspects, the other gets a locking biner to anchor in. In the middle, and through both loops, goes locking biner and rap device. Like you, I am putting my life on that one nylon, but have the autblock on belay loop as backup. I then set up rap, unclip from anchor and clip that to my belay loop. That way when I get to next rap, its all there and I just clip in and repeat process.

johnnymuir wrote: Like you, I am putting my life on that one nylon

why not run a draw from the rap device biner to your belay loop for redundancy? this draw can then also be used to back up your tether when you clip into the next rap station

eli poss wrote: why not run a draw from the rap device biner to your belay loop for redundancy? this draw can then also be used to back up your tether when you clip into the next rap station

He already has redundancy if he clips his rap biner through both loops (over the knot). He is essentially rappelling on two slings.

In single pitch routes I don't, but always when its a long route with only a rap for the descent

FrankPS wrote: He already has redundancy if he clips his rap biner through both loops (over the knot). He is essentially rappelling on two slings.

Right, forgot to mention thats also part of why I like that particular setup. Im sure itll evolve as I learn more about climbing, but I love the simplicity of it, and it has worked well for me thus far.

I always backup my rappel. Almost always with an autoblock below my device. Occasionally, when circumstances allow and it would be faster (e.g., multi-pitch rappels going second, single pitch rappels) I'll ask my partner to give a fireman's belay from below. But, to reiterate....ALWAYS, 100% of the time, for about the last 20 years. It's never mattered, but when it does, I'll be ready.

Is this post still going. My god!

I grew up using a Dülfersitz for my rappels.
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Anything more than a dbl biner brake is new school.
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OK, I do now use an ATC, but no backup.

FrankPS wrote: He already has redundancy if he clips his rap biner through both loops (over the knot). He is essentially rappelling on two slings.

Only for the upper loop

If the lower loop below the knot fails the entire sling can come off the harness

As to folks who dont find enough friction with the autoblock .... Use a hedden knot ... Works with slings and cord and grips like a polar bear latched on a phat tasty seal

;)

Healyje wrote: It's way better to do the opposite if you're doing any kind of work - extend the ATC and put the Shunt on your belay loop and rap by operating the Shunt. If you're carrying any kind of load then hang it (extended) off the ATC as well.

The shunt is a rope clamp device. To my knowledge there is no way to rap with it. It is either clamped or the rope runs freely. It is basically a cam ascender that works on 2 ropes and without a handle.

Here is a link to the product page.
petzl.com/en/Sport/Ascender…\

I only got it because a guy was selling his gear and it was $5 and brand new, also got a $5 new style forged friend. However after having it and using it for a while I REALLY like it.

Healyje wrote:It's way better to do the opposite if you're doing any kind of work - extend the ATC and put the Shunt on your belay loop and rap by operating the Shunt. If you're carrying any kind of load then hang it (extended) off the ATC as well.

NickMartel wrote: The shunt is a rope clamp device. To my knowledge there is no way to rap with it. It is either clamped or the rope runs freely. It is basically a cam ascender that works on 2 ropes and without a handle. Here is a link to the product page. petzl.com/en/Sport/Ascender…\ I only got it because a guy was selling his gear and it was $5 and brand new, also got a $5 new style forged friend. However after having it and using it for a while I REALLY like it.

I've done around two hundred plus hours of anchor replacements and cleaning out of neglected routes on a multi-pitch crag with 80-90 pound loads using the this system and can testify to its efficacy, ease and simplicity.

FrankPS wrote: He already has redundancy if he clips his rap biner through both loops (over the knot). He is essentially rappelling on two slings.

not if the issue lies in the sling (chemical exposure or some QC issue). It also works only if he clips the tether locker back to his belay loop instead of his gear loop or leaves it hanging, something some may not bother with.

manuel rangel wrote:I use an autoblock when I feel it necessary. I agree with Kyle about knotting the ends of the rope. In my experience it has only been necessary a couple times. I am more afraid of getting the ends stuck than rapping off the end of the line. I think you need to feel comfortable and if knotting the ends of the rope does it for you then have at it. Hopefully all will be well. Like Kyle, I've been climbing more than 30 years and have seen all kinds of devices and accessories. The most effective safety device is your brain, use it.

Good point Manny!

I back up virtually every rappel. It is frequently helpful in addressing minor issues like tangled lines. Once in a while I slip, or a rock crumbles under my foot, and the backup helps me maintain control of the rappel. It is a useful tool.

eli poss wrote: not if the issue lies in the sling (chemical exposure or some QC issue). It also works only if he clips the tether locker back to his belay loop instead of his gear loop or leaves it hanging, something some may not bother with.

Thats what I do, clip it back to the belay loop. And yes, if the sling is F'ed, so am I.

Healyje wrote: I've done around two hundred plus hours of anchor replacements and cleaning out of neglected routes on a multi-pitch crag with 80-90 pound loads using the this system and can testify to its efficacy, ease and simplicity.

Then I defer to your experience. Can you elaborate on how you operate the shunt to rap. I am having a hard time picturing it. as I said earlier it seems to me that it is locked when weighted then it "pops" open when I squeeze it and it finally releases. Is there a way to get it to release gradually?