Backing up rappells: Who does it?

johnnymuir wrote: This is the attitude I have when I rap. When I was taught how to rap, it dawned on me right away that letting go of the brake hand means death. .

Damn straight. Same here.
Two rappel accidents that I have 1st hand knowledge of involved climber rapping off one strand due to unequal rope ends. Autoblock alone would not have prevented either, in fact, in one case, a prussik was in use. Autoblock plus knotting the ends might have prevented the accidents.

If I'm the first one down a rappel or its multi-pitch, I will back up and extend. I use two dyneema slings attached to my belay loop with a locker to extend. I use a 6mm loop to make my klemheist, which is attached with a locker to my belay loop.

S. Neoh wrote: Damn straight. Same here. Two rappel accidents that I have 1st hand knowledge of involved climber rapping off one strand due to unequal rope ends.

One of the largest, if not the single largest, causes of rappelling accidents in climbing is competency or failure to pay attention. In nearly all cases in which a climber raps off the end of a rope, the true cause is simply that the climber was being complacent and just assumed there was rope left instead of visually verifying. I dont have a problem with other climbers tying knots in the end of the rope, but we need to address the real cause—climbers rap off the end of the rope because they are not paying attention. Backups are fine, but backups are secondary, the most important aspect is attention to the situation at hand.

20 kN wrote: In how many accidents can we say the climber was 100% alert, always paying attention and fully aware of where the end of the rope was at all times, but still ended up going off the end? I would guess almost 0%.

But isnt that the whole idea behind knotting the ropes? We are human, we are not attentive 100% of the time, mistakes happen, and so we devise safety systems to help mitigate that.

I always back up my rappel, and weight my rig before unclipping my PAS, this due to a near miss while sport climbing.

I love climbing and I want to take every reasonable step to reduce risk. One of the few situations I'm aware of where compromising safety practices makes sense is alpine climbing, where speed factors heavily into safety, so running out pro may be safer in the long run. However, I still back up my raps because it takes almost no additional time and effort to set up. YMMV

I do 100% when I'm in the back country. I use a kleimheist clipped to my leg loop and it takes around 10 -15 seconds to wrap and test. Plus, if I'm the second one down, I'll go ahead and wrap the kleimheist on the strands as the first is rapping. This saves those extra seconds when the first down finally yells off rappel.

I dont have a problem with other climbers tying knots in the end of the rope, but we need to address the real cause—climbers rap off the end of the rope because they are not paying attention. Backups are fine, but backups are secondary, the most important aspect is attention to the situation at hand.
Again, on the money IMHO. Simply put, there is no substitute for paying attention and be situationally aware at all times, as someone had posted. And this does not apply to rap or belay only. It has to apply whenever you are out climbing.

S. Neoh wrote: Simply put, there is no substitute for paying attention and be situationally aware at all times, as someone had posted. And this does not apply to rap or belay only. It has to apply whenever you are out climbing.

I dont think anyone would argue that theres no substitute for paying attention and proper technique. The same can be said for driving a car. But when doing so, we wear seatbelts (or should) because accidents happen. If we knew we would never get hurt, we wouldnt wear helmets or even use ropes! The whole idea, to me, is to add as much safety into the system as possible. As some have mentioned, sometimes speed is the safest approach. But other times, speed is just folks being lazy, complacent, or wanting to get back to the bar in time, and speed can kill in that sense.

johnnymuir wrote: I dont think anyone would argue that theres no substitute for paying attention and proper technique. The same can be said for driving a car. But when doing so, we wear seatbelts (or should) because accidents happen. If we knew we would never get hurt, we wouldnt wear helmets or even use ropes! The whole idea, to me, is to add as much safety into the system as possible. As some have mentioned, sometimes speed is the safest approach. But other times, speed is just folks being lazy, complacent, or wanting to get back to the bar in time, and speed can kill in that sense.

Agreed. One has to also guard against complacency incurred by 100% trusting less-than-perfect backups.
I wear a helmet, and not limited to while I am climbing, and I knot the ends of the rope when I am even a bit in doubt. Triple check before each and every rap? Definitely. Leg wrap? Yes, if I need to stop mid way for any reason. Fireman's? Sure, if the situation warrants it.

Dylan B. wrote: The 2015 edition of Accidents in North American Mountaineering came out last month and described multiple rappelling Accidents which might have been prevented with use of a back up or knotted ropes.

I count nine rappelling accidents (down from 17 in 2014). Five of them involved going off the end of the ropes, the others involved various failures like slings untying, carabiners breaking, and being so drunk the climber fell off before getting their device attached.

In two or three of the cases in which someone rappelled of the end of the ropes, a backup was installed and did nothing. (The ineffectiveness of a backup in preventing rapping off the ends of ropes has been known for years, but it is sad to get explicit confirmation.)

There weren't any accidents in which a backup would have changed the outcome, and as mentioned, backups were present in at least some of the cases. There were no cases in which misuse of the backup caused the accident either. (Actually, there was one accident in which a backup was judged to have been incorrectly installed, and if so could conceivably have contributed to the accident, but I think the analysis in that case is seriously flawed.)

Reading between the lines, it seems possible to me that someone thought the combination of a backup an one knot would keep a person from rapping off uneven ends. (Or maybe they just forgot to tie the other knot.) If this was true, you could just tie a knot in the strand to be pulled and avoid the problem that happens when you pull the rappel without untying the knot on the strand that is going up. But in the accident, once the knot reached the rappeller, the backup did not keep the other strand from slipping through. I think this is because the knot would hit a backup tied below the device and jam the knot against the climber's brake hand, thereby releasing the friction knot. It is equally possible that the friction knot just doesn't grip hard enough for this purpose, i.e. when one strand is stationary and the other is moving. There is no way to know what the deceased person was thinking, but just in case anyone else thinks one knot plus rap backup is a viable strategy, please think again---it won't work.

The only thing rappel backups can do (if they aren't too loose) is to stop the climber from falling down the rope if something causes them to let go with the brake hand. I think it is unfortunate that the technique has crossed over from being a safety measure for very rare circumstances to an everyday convenience for going hands-free, replacing the far more foolproof leg-wrap technique.

short single pitch sport climbs, no.
Any other time (multipitch, sketchy rock or snow) yes.

rgold wrote: I think it is unfortunate that the technique has crossed over from being a safety measure for very rare circumstances to an everyday convenience for going hands-free, replacing the far more foolproof leg-wrap technique.

I think almost everyone that uses the friction hitch rappel backup uses it primarily as a safety measure. It has the added, secondary benefit of making additional things easier, such as dealing with tangles, etc.

And since the current ANAM is being used as a reference source, here's a quote from page 33. This discusses retreat/descent from El Cap: "In addition to studying the rappel route (and carrying a topo of the descent) in case it's necessary to bail from the climb, the fundamentals of safe rappelling - knotting the rope ends, using a friction backup,..."

Sometimes I back up my rappels, sometimes I don't. When I do, I generally use an auto-block knot, rather than anything more complicated.

If I am the 2nd (or later) person down a rappel, I won't bother with a backup. If I am first down, but the rappel is clearly clean -- I can see that the rope is clear to the ground, no tangles, no messes -- I will not back up my rappel.

If I think the rappel will be complicated -- I'm not sure where the next anchor will be, I may need to wander back & forth across the cliff, I may need to untangle a badly tangled rope -- I will usually use a back-up.

If I'm not sure, I'll tend towards not, because I'm generally pretty comfortable with a leg-wrap if I need to stop myself and go hands-free.

I also usually wear gloves when rappelling. I climb enough that I want to preserve my skin for wear from the rock, rather than wear from the rope.

If I am rappelling to clean a route -- that is, to scrub lichen, trundle rocks, and other route-development work -- or to bolt a route, I will use a back up. (And, maybe, a Grigri.)

I do every time, unless I see the rope touch the ground. I am always using it to un-cluster the rope too.

As David mentions ^^ I ONLY use any kind of backup when developing because I know i will be going hand free a bunch and due to the increased risk of rockfall. In that case I use a Petzl Shunt extended with a 36" sling above my ATC and hold it open with my left hand while rapping and then let it engage if I need to hang hands free.

NickMartel wrote:As David mentions ^^ I ONLY use any kind of backup when developing because I know i will be going hand free a bunch and due to the increased risk of rockfall. In that case I use a Petzl Shunt extended with a 36" sling above my ATC and hold it open with my left hand while rapping and then let it engage if I need to hang hands free.

Good points. Agreed. I would do the same!

Backing up the rappel is mostly just a waste of time and needless complication that could get you killed.

NickMartel wrote:As David mentions ^^ I ONLY use any kind of backup when developing because I know i will be going hand free a bunch and due to the increased risk of rockfall. In that case I use a Petzl Shunt extended with a 36" sling above my ATC and hold it open with my left hand while rapping and then let it engage if I need to hang hands free.

It's way better to do the opposite if you're doing any kind of work - extend the ATC and put the Shunt on your belay loop and rap by operating the Shunt. If you're carrying any kind of load then hang it (extended) off the ATC as well.

Yes, extended ATC, with prussik. Tying a neat, tidy prussik means also having the skill to set up a personal anchor/tether top or bottom of cliff, escape a belay, ascend or descend a rope, on and on.

Really, though, weighting that prussik before going over the edge is also my very last chance to notice if the ATC is loaded incorrectly. I'd much rather have "well, isn't that brilliant?" going through my mind, in that sort of scenario, than otherwise.

New to climbing, but not new to being alive a long time. Stoopid will happen, even to the "100 %" vigilant. I wear a helmet too, sometimes even on the approach.

That video was awesome!! I may be mistaken, but doesn't sloshing through a waterfall put you into canyoneering? Wet, single rope is not exactly run of the mill climbing, and I hope you'd change techniques/devices appropriately. I have had rope slip while belaying with sweaty hands, so I can only imagine trying to control a wet rope and body weight! Glad the guy came out okay.

My standard is to use an autoblock. I see it as an appeasement to the Climbing Gods.

If I, for whatever reason, decide to forgo the backup, I tell myself that I must be ever so much more diligent. There can be no getting freaked out if a raptor suddenly takes flight from some cranny and flies into my face. There can be no having some idiot huck a rock down on my head. There can be no moment of glory upon finding a next-to-new cam just fixed enough that it needs two paws to pluck from stuck...Yes, I could leg-wrap in that case, but I would probably wrap even with an autoblock on. I never find stuck cams... just as I never get rocks hucked, or have falcons fly into my face. But it's the thought that counts.

I might not autoblock on a shorty single pitch rap where I have good view to ground, and am not tired or thirsty or otherwise less that completely on it, but when I do, I sense the reaper's dog putting nose to the wind, ready to to alert his master.

Mostly, I back up because I would die of embarrassment if I f'd the rap and died from being so stupid I didn't back up. I also don't want to ever put someone in the position of dealing with my dead or mangled body, and reducing that possibility by such a simple act as backing up seems a small thing to do.