Backing up rappells: Who does it?

Greg D wrote:And I wonder how many of those that use it are aware of the various failure modes. False sense of security perhaps.

Such as? I rely on mine so I'd like to know what could go wrong.

Healyje wrote:Whenever I go hands free I have a solid leg wrap regardless of whether I'm using a rappel backup or not (and typically never engage the back-up in the process).

I always make sure to engage it very slowly, with my hand still on the brake end until I know its holding. But its simple physics, friction, why wouldnt it hold?

Is it a matter of preference to prussic below or above the belay? Is one way better than the other?

Rick Blair wrote:Me. If not first down I ask for a firemans

This guy's got it

bearbreeder wrote:Do you only belay with a grigri? You should ... Because a medical condition, rockfall or a rabid bear biting you would mean their deaths ...

any suggestions for keeping the brake hand on the grigri during bear attacks? we all know the grigri does not work without one right?

johnnymuir wrote: Such as? I rely on mine so I'd like to know what could go wrong. I always make sure to engage it very slowly, with my hand still on the brake end until I know its holding. But its simple physics, friction, why wouldnt it hold?

If the autoblock hits the ATC, the ATC can hold the knot in the release mode and it wont lock. If your harness has quickbuckles (e.g. no doublebacking), it is possible under specific conditions that the weight of the biner attached to your autoblock can open up the leg loop that the biner is attached to. If you are descending fast and you let go so as to engage the autoblock, it may not engage while the rope is moving through it quickly. Using an autoblock specific cord such as the yellow sterling cord posted above or using a smaller cord such as 5mm will help reduce the chance of this happening. You can eliminate the possibility of your leg loop opening or your autoblock hitting the ATC by extending your ATC out with a sling or PAS. You can also eliminate the possibility of the leg loop opening by clipping the autoblock biner to your leg loop behind the riser, on the leg loop. The riser is the webbing that extends from the leg loop to the center of your harness to form the lower tie in point.

Brian W. wrote: Same question I asked above - Does your HollowBlock work on a single line? because mine does not come close to gripping, even with 5 wraps. If so, how do you tie it?

I've never tried it rappelling with a single line, only doubles down to 9mm and autoblock. I have ascended line though, with a Klemheist, and it worked great.

Auto-block on multi-pitch routes, rockfall area, or really anywhere but a sport crag. At a sport crag, I either get lowered or quickly rap. If I'm cleaning I'll use an autoblock.

So really I guess I use it every time I'm not being lazy.

20 kN wrote: If the autoblock hits the ATC, the ATC can hold the knot in the release mode and it wont lock. If your harness has quickbuckles (e.g. no doublebacking), it is possible under specific conditions that the weight of the biner attached to your autoblock can open up the leg loop that the biner is attached to. If you are descending fast and you let go so as to engage the autoblock, it may not engage while the rope is moving through it quickly. Using an autoblock specific cord such as the yellow sterling cord posted above or using a smaller cord such as 5mm will help reduce the chance of this happening. You can eliminate the possibility of your leg loop opening or your autoblock hitting the ATC by extending your ATC out with a sling or PAS. You can also eliminate the possibility of the leg loop opening by clipping the autoblock biner to your leg loop behind the riser, on the leg loop. The riser is the webbing that extends from the leg loop to the center of your harness to form the lower tie in point.

Right. But like you even just said, if you take the steps to mitigate the risks, its not going to just fail to do its job, right?

I actually learned you can put your autoblock on your belay loop instead of your leg loop, as long as you extend the rap its fine. But I like having it off to the side on the leg loop, so Ill try the method you explained.

I guess what I love most about mountain project is how everyone not only swears that they always do things that you never ever see in practice, but also that you are a complete fool not to. Autoblocking, knotting ends of the rope, washing off tick marks, every grigri comment made ...

Anything alpine, I'm backing it up. When cragging, I usually don't back it up, unless I have a day-pack on.

There's an easy solution to this argument...gri-gri your partner down the route. This works 3-fold 1. They are on a gri-gri so if you lost conciseness they won't die immediately (lets forgo the absolute worst scenarios) 2. This allows them to spot the next anchors without being on rappel 3. If they can't find the next set of anchors they can jug/climb back up and repeat the process

You then rap on a fireman's to them and repeat the process ad nauseam until you reach the ground.

Edit: This should be quick and straightforward too (no extra time required), assuming you don't have some massive hiccup and have to jug back up 210 feet of rope in open space (but if that happens without a backup you'd probably be dead).

Am I missing something?

I back up about 95% of the time and often extend on long raps. It's so nice being able to let go and deal with whatever happens on the way down. Some here have compared rapping to belaying/lowering to argue against backing up. The two are fundamentally different though--in rapping, the person holding the brake line is in motion. And there's simply the practical argument--so many climbing accidents happen during rapping that it just makes sense to be a little extra cautious. If there is loose rock, you shouldn't be lowering anyway.

Travis Haussener wrote: They are on a gri-gri so if you lost conciseness they won't die immediately Am I missing something?

Losing conciseness is bad news. Happens all the time on MP. Often with me.

powhound84 wrote: If you have never seen someone use an autoblock to back up their rappel or knot the end of the ropes, you have been climbing around some risky folks. That's not to say it's always necessary but in most scenarios, I do both.

At the risk of starting a pissing match, you are way off base. I have been climbing for a very long time (over 30 years). My partners include professional guides (even one who teaches the classes) SAR climbers, and serious traditional climbers (people who climb multi-pitch 5.12 trad regularly). This attitude from beginners that autoblocking, knotting, etc. is necessary and essential is mostly just annoying, but it is ultimately wrong. Perhaps I shouldn't expect accurate knowledge from MP, but as a highly experienced climber, I will tell you that I never see someone set an autolock to rap clean a sport line (and if I did I would snicker behind their back). Also, the practice of knotting the ends is more likely to cause a dangerous situation than prevent one (although in very rare circumstances it is appropriate - and I do occasionally use it).
My comment was simply to draw attention to the blind leading the blind that often arises in these threads.

Kyle Edmondson wrote:I will tell you that I never see someone set an autolock to rap clean a sport line (and if I did I would snicker behind their back).

This seems silly. Snickering at safety? Because to my knowledge, other than the time it takes to set up, there is no disadvantage to the backup, is there? Like, it doesnt weaken any part of the system, doesnt cause anything bad to happen?

I'm surprised at how many have replied saying they usually/always use a backup, because I very rarely actually see anyone doing it. I never do, though I do often give a fireman's belay if I'm not the last one down, especially while canyoneering.

I never questioned the experience or skill of you and your partners.

I guess I misread the you've been climbing around risky folk comment. My mistake.
And I get my own inconsistency. However, I really don't ever see the others, and I have seen far more ropes pulled and stuck with knots left in the end than heard of people rapping off the end (although clearly the consequences are different - though don't underestimate the danger of getting your ropes stuck on a multi pitch rap).
But again, you call me out for my "complacent attitude". In response, I will have to defer to a man far wiser than me and say "Donny, you are out of your element. You are like a child, who wanders in from the woods."

I generally use either my AlpineUp, or Megajul for rappelling so that I'm backed up hassle free. If all I've got is my ATC, I'll decide whether or not to do a friction hitch backup based on how straight forward the rappel is.

Dylan Colon wrote:I normally don't but I do more lately since I bought an Edilrid (sp?) Mega Jul belay device. It autoblocks automatically so you don't have to deal with prusiks, much like a Gri-Gri would for a single line. It does not feel smoothly at all though, making for slow, jerky rappels.

Turn the device the other way, wire loop pointing out, and thumb loop up. It'll ride just like a regular ATC.

For the record, I am not making fun of people for being safe. I am making fun of them for doing irrelevant things and believing that it makes them safe. And I never made a personal attack (I appreciate the douche comment). I don't judge you at all, just your opinion. Finally, is there ever a bad place to reference Lebowski? I think not.