Backing up rappells: Who does it?

I don't backup at times because I am complacent.

ryan albery wrote: Or is it just me who thinks a back up to a rap is a rookie waste of time?

It's usually a waste of time, because you usually don't fall and die. Do you wear a seat belt? Do you poke fun at people for wearing helmets too?

I don't think there's a black and white answer. I back up sometimes. Typically if I'm the first person going down on a multi-pitch rap I'll fix the line and use a Grigri which saves me the trouble. In a well traveled sport area without lots of loose rock, where I can clearly see and communicate with someone I trust on the ground to give me a fireman belay, I'll skip the back-up on my ATC. I'd also consider going without the back-up to beat a storm if I thought it might be dangerous, but not a little summer shower at the Gunks. Some of you guys are obviously doing way more badass alpine climbing where time is more critical and storms are more deadly. Generally speaking, if I can't see and hear someone I trust on the other end of the rope, I'm using some form of back-up, either a locking device if possible or an autoblock if not.

I do most of the time, and I use this, it grips like crazy:

The backup for ice climbing is mainly because of the all the extra hazards: falling ice, rope tangling in your tools, trying not to step on the rope below you with your crampons, bulky clothing making it hard to see, and standing directly below for a firemans belay is good place for the belayer to get pummeled, etc.

MyFeetHurt wrote:I do most of the time, and I use this, it grips like crazy:

Same question I asked above - Does your HollowBlock work on a single line? because mine does not come close to gripping, even with 5 wraps. If so, how do you tie it?

I use an autoblock about half the time. I skip it if I'm feeling lazy or rushed, but it takes almost no time at all so there's not really a good reason to not do it (except apparently it makes you look like a noob - that's a really dumb reason to not do it)

I'm pro autoblock, all the time. A good friend, and co-founder of Exum Guides got me into using one. He didn't pressure me one bit, but when I asked why he does it and he told me "I've seen too many of my friends at the other end...". That kind of statement makes a lasting impression. So, here's to an autoblock and climbing in your 70's.

I especially love those that do it most of the time. Kinda like wearing a seatbelt most of the time.

And I wonder how many of those that use it are aware of the various failure modes. False sense of security perhaps.

Personally, I believe mindset is one of the most important safety factors anywhere anytime. When I belay I know I must never ever let go of the brake. Same when I rappel. I don't tie knots in the end of my rope either. Shame on me. Mindset. I must be fully engaged, totally aware. This is why I climb. 100% present in the here and now.

Autoblocks on occasion when rapping into the dark on unknown route.

I like autoblocks because they let me do other things while I'm rappelling just like an autoblock belay device lets me do other things while I'm belaying...

Greg D, you often times, actually more often than not, are correct, but always portray yourself, through written words, as a dick. However, if you're like most Coloradans, you ARE getting SAFE before you're climbing. So, I suggest an autoblock.

jaredsmokescigars wrote:Greg D, you often times, actually more often than not, are correct, but always portray yourself, through written words, as a dick.

Is that a problem?

i'm almost always rapping with an alpine smart which has a built in backup. but even before i got the alpine smarts i didn't bother because, if i need to go hands free, i can just do the leg wrap. and i knot the ends of my rope so i can't rappel off the ends (#1 most common death related to climbing)

eli poss wrote:. and i knot the ends of my rope so i can't rappel off the ends (#1 most common death related to climbing)

What? Where did you get that? Totally false.

Oops. Did I sound like a dick?

rock and ice, if i recall correctly. and, quite frankly, i'm disappointed you're asking whether you sound like a dick. it's much less funny to read when i know that, deep down, there's actually a person who gives a fuck.

and if rapping off the ends isn't the most common death related to climbing, what is? Driving to the crag would be my second guess.

Greg D, you must be a professional at necessary/sufficient arguments. Can you spot the flaw?

I do agree with Greg D that attention to detail is by far the most useful and important safety feature in climbing, as well as possibly the single greatest indicator of a climber's experience and wisdom. However, even in a perfect world where your attention to detail is exemplary, a rock could still come flying down and break your hand (seen it), or you could put your foot in a pocket and unleash a swarm of wasps (seen it), or your partner could do something totally retarded and unexpected and put you in danger (seen it). Some extra "safety features" are worth it, some are not. You have to decide in real time on the route. Not all climbers will arrive at the same conclusion and different climbers are willing to accept different levels of risk.

johnnymuir wrote:...It's nice to be able to go hands free...

I have to admit the idea of using rappel back-ups for going 'hands free' makes me a bit queasy, if not entirely uncomfortable. Whenever I go hands free I have a solid leg wrap regardless of whether I'm using a rappel backup or not (and typically never engage the back-up in the process).

bearbreeder wrote:However if you are using them because of a lack of proper rappel technique or because you aren't confident enough to rap down without one Then i also submit you have no business belaying or lowering someone on an ATC.

We certainly agree on this one...

20 kN wrote:I do agree with Greg D that attention to detail is by far the most useful and important safety feature in climbing, as well as possibly the single greatest indicator of a climber's experience and wisdom.

Hmm. I get what is being said here, but for me this is a somewhat narrow version of what I consider the real imperative along these lines.

I've stated elsewhere I consider inattention and distraction to be the true root cause of the vast majority of injuries and deaths in climbing. Given that opinion, what I personally tend to stress is idea that, from the moment you leave your car until you return to it, you should be entirely present in any task at hand. It doesn't matter if it's hiking the approach trail, the actual climbing, the descent or anything else you end up doing - being present at all times is paramount to your safe return.

Sure, attention to detail when undertaking roped, technical tasks is of utmost importance, but I've lost track of how many people I know of who were seriously injured or died just hiking in on 1st-3rd class terrain, moving unroped over fourth class approaches, on descents of all kinds, and doing various ancillary tasks when unroped.

So I guess my point is one more of scope: attention to detail is important, but learning to be '[100%] present' for the entire day / outing is a high imperative if you intend to have any kind of longevity in the sport.

Healyje wrote: I have to admit the idea of using rappel back-ups for going 'hands free' makes me a bit queasy, if not entirely uncomfortable. Whenever I go hands free I have a solid leg wrap regardless of whether I'm using a rappel backup or not (and typically never engage the back-up in the process). We certainly agree on this one... Hmm. I get what is being said here, but for me this is a somewhat narrow version of what I consider the real imperative along these lines. I've stated elsewhere I consider inattention and distraction to be the true root cause of the vast majority of injuries and deaths in climbing. Given that opinion, what I personally tend to stress is idea that, from the moment you leave your car until you return to it, you should be entirely present in any task at hand. It doesn't matter if it's hiking the approach trail, the actual climbing, the descent or anything else you end up doing - being present at all times is paramount to your safe return. Sure, attention to detail when undertaking roped, technical tasks is of utmost importance, but I've lost track of how many people I know of who were seriously injured or died just hiking in on 1st-3rd class terrain, moving unroped over fourth class approaches, on descents of all kinds, and doing various ancillary tasks when unroped. So I guess my point is one more of scope: attention to detail is important, but learning to be '[100%] present' for the entire day / outing is a high imperative if you intend to have any kind of longevity in the sport.

Sure, except attention to detail does not necessarily mean only attention to the esoteric, inconspicuous details. It also includes details that are glaringly obvious such as ensuring your partner uses a locking carabiner with his ATC. In my post, I meant attention to detail to mean attention to every and any detail that could directly or indirectly affect your or your partner's safety from the most obvious to the most cryptic. Attention to your surroundings, attention to the gear, attention to the route and rock, and attention to outside factors. Be attentive to everything, same as your alluding to.

Brian W. wrote:For those who say they use an autoblock 100% of the time, does that really include raps after cleaning a 50 ft single-pitch sport climb? For me the answer is 'no' because the amount of time/work I have to put into it just doesn't seem practical (by the time I have it tied I would already be on the ground with my shoes off).

Not a valid argument. If you have a dedicated chord and biner already attached to your leg loop, it is actually faster to use the autoblock than it is to fight the weight of the rope when threading your belay device.

Brian W. wrote:For those who say they use an autoblock 100% of the time, does that really include raps after cleaning a 50 ft single-pitch sport climb? For me the answer is 'no' because the amount of time/work I have to put into it just doesn't seem practical (by the time I have it tied I would already be on the ground with my shoes off).

Not a valid argument. If you have a dedicated chord and biner already attached to your leg loop, it is actually faster to use the autoblock than it is to fight the weight of the rope when threading your belay device.

Brian W. wrote:For those who say they use an autoblock 100% of the time, does that really include raps after cleaning a 50 ft single-pitch sport climb? For me the answer is 'no' because the amount of time/work I have to put into it just doesn't seem practical (by the time I have it tied I would already be on the ground with my shoes off).

Not a valid argument. If you have a dedicated chord and biner already attached to your leg loop, it is actually faster to use the autoblock than it is to fight the weight of the rope when threading your belay device.