painting hangers

bus driver wrote:"Glue ins are superior to mechanical bolts in every way, except you have to wait for the glue to dry." That may be true as long as the hole has been cleaned with compressed air, brushed out, then cleaned again with compressed air. Any dust left in the hole combined with cartridge type glue applicators have been shown to reduce pull out strength by 90% climbargolis.com/Glue-inBol…

I actually brush it twice. Blow, brush, blow, brush, blow. It doesent really take any extra time to run through the procedure a second time.

bus driver wrote:"Glue ins are superior to mechanical bolts in every way, except you have to wait for the glue to dry." That may be true as long as the hole has been cleaned with compressed air, brushed out, then cleaned again with compressed air. Any dust left in the hole combined with cartridge type glue applicators have been shown to reduce pull out strength by 90% climbargolis.com/Glue-inBol…

Nonsense.

You do not need compressed air, if "compressed air" means some sort of pressure tank. Compressed air from a simple hand-pump or bulb works fine. Besides, you should always brush and blow-out the hole when using expansion bolts, so what's your point?

Cartridge glues were bunk from the get-go, and any competent bolter would have removed them from consideration about 20 years ago.

At the end of the day, there are many more ways to fuck-up an expansion bolt placement than a glue-in.

My comment stands. A glue-in is: easier to place, stronger in every way, more tolerant of soft rock, has less visual impact, doesn't chew-up your biners, more corrosion resistant, easier to clip, less likely to become unclipped, etc.

20 kN wrote: I actually brush it twice. Blow, brush, blow, brush, blow. It doesent really take any extra time to run through the procedure a second time.

Exactly right. And if dust continues to come out, I brush & blow until it stops coming out.

Steve "Crusher" Bartlett wrote: I'm thinking that realistically, for dry Western climates (except drainage/seep/runoff locations) the paint will barely affect the lifespan of a SS hanger.

Maybe, maybe not. It's not conclusive but in some locations having a wet season and a dry season seems to promote corrosion of SS. Places like Rifle and Sinks can seep for several months in the Spring, then dry out for 6 months...

As far as paint affecting the lifespan... it depends on what you mean by "lifespan". The UIAA will be promoting a minimum 50 year lifespan in its forthcoming guidelines. Is there anywhere in this country that has even 25-year-old painted stainless bolts? 20 years? 10? It'd be a shame if all those painted hangers had to be replaced in 20 years, just because someone etched, scratched and painted them.

The manufacturers and metallurgists are pretty clear on this. Don't paint 'em.

mattm wrote:"Crevice corrosion and it´s related problem of pitting are common in coated stainless steel products and really anyone using this sort of coated hanger is asking for trouble. In order to get good adhesion of the coating it is nescessary to destroy the oxide coating with some kind of etch primer, thus removing the stainless steel´s protective barrier.

SYK, I believe powder coating is a perfectly safe process to paint SS hangers. The surface does not need to be etched for powder coating to adhere properly. Only cleaned with a degreaser. The powder is applied by polarizing the powder to stick to the surface till it get baked in an oven which fixes the coating that last longer than almost all paints. POR-15 & POR 20 enamels can create impenetrable surfaces too, but feature acid etching to achieve as much. Powder coatings only drawback, as I see it, is the orange peel finish that is common. Could be a benefit to someone looking to lower the visual impact of hangers.

Craig Childre wrote: SYK, I believe powder coating is a perfectly safe process to paint SS hangers. The surface does not need to be etched for powder coating to adhere properly. Only cleaned with a degreaser. The powder is applied by polarizing the powder to stick to the surface till it get baked in an oven which fixes the coating that last longer than almost all paints. POR-15 & POR 20 enamels can create impenetrable surfaces too, but feature acid etching to achieve as much. Powder coatings only drawback, as I see it, is the orange peel finish that is common. Could be a benefit to someone looking to lower the visual impact of hangers.

Already been discussed up thread.

John Byrnes wrote: A glue-in is: easier to place, stronger in every way, more tolerant of soft rock, has less visual impact, doesn't chew-up your biners, more corrosion resistant, easier to clip, less likely to become unclipped, etc.

I have fairly limited experience with glue-ins. But, I have placed them.

I don't find them, or their equipment, easier to place/use.

Stronger, yeah, I'd think so. Especially in soft rock.

Less visual...probably usually.

I'd hope they were more corrosion resistant. Has to be some residual stress in some brands, though. And, gluing in all-thread rod made from carbon steel wouldn't answer the corrosion mail. But, those would be exceptions.

Easier to clip? I'd say mostly yes. Some designs have a fairly small loop that can be more difficult to clip, but, also an exception.

Some designs seemed to prone to unclipping? I dimly recall some info on a brand or two that had issues. Size, configuration, embedment, orientation...all seemed factors. More going on with a glue-in methinks.

I think it takes a bunch more skill and savvy to do glue-in bolts well. Almost another level of craftsmanship. When its done well...they are the BEST.

Also, most bolts/studs can be moved or removed easily. I think folks don't get fixed gear exactly right and its nice to be able to change positions, bolt spread, etc.

I'd consider placing more but for having to manage the glue thing and I'd have to radically alter how I do "it". But, that could be learned.

Anyhoo...that said, I'd be fully in support of glue-ins. When done well, they are pretty sweet.

Brian in SLC wrote: I have fairly limited experience with glue-ins. .

Same. I found that blowing, brushing, repeat, then covering the hole with duct tape to keep it clean worked best for me.

It would sometimes take me a day to prep an entire route so I could get all the bolts glued with a single nozzle.

So it's at least twice as much jugging and rapping and it takes longer. For sport routes though, I don't think of this as a problem. Seems better to think it through than to rap in and haphazardly slam in expansion bolts so you can send after lunch.

Craig Childre wrote: SYK, I believe powder coating is a perfectly safe process to paint SS hangers. The surface does not need to be etched for powder coating to adhere properly. Only cleaned with a degreaser. The powder is applied by polarizing the powder to stick to the surface till it get baked in an oven which fixes the coating that last longer than almost all paints. POR-15 & POR 20 enamels can create impenetrable surfaces too, but feature acid etching to achieve as much. Powder coatings only drawback, as I see it, is the orange peel finish that is common. Could be a benefit to someone looking to lower the visual impact of hangers.

In some cases, powder coating can critically affect a hanger's ability to resist corrosion. The powder coating helps while the coating is intact, but once it cracks big problems can occur. In my area, nearly all of the hangers that have failed were powder coated. This is because once the coating cracks, salt can settle between the coating and metal, shielded from rain, can cause aggressive, localized corrosion.

Steve "Crusher" Bartlett wrote: I wonder if a brown Sharpie might work? Might be better than nothing.

Sharpie actually makes one with acrylic paint in it instead of ink. Dries really fast too - less than 5 minutes.

Brian in SLC wrote: I don't find them, or their equipment, easier to place/use.

I agree the ones that need recessing/embedding are a huge PITA. The good designs only require a simple hole in the rock. And the hole doesn't need to be perfectly cylindrical and perpendicular to the surface like one for an expansion bolt.

The surface doesn't need to be flat for the hanger either. I often place them in a slight bulge in the rock, making it easier to clip both the bolt and rope since the bottom biner is hanging free from the rock.

Brian in SLC wrote:I'd hope they were more corrosion resistant. Has to be some residual stress in some brands, though.

The residual stress is always going to be there, so they are definitely not immune to SCC. However, all evidence says glue-ins last longer than expansion bolts, all else being equal.

Brian in SLC wrote:Easier to clip? I'd say mostly yes. Some designs have a fairly small loop that can be more difficult to clip, but, also an exception. Some designs seemed to prone to unclipping? I dimly recall some info on a brand or two that had issues.

All true, but the newer "hairpin" designs are much better than their predecessors.

Brian in SLC wrote:More going on with a glue-in methinks. I think it takes a bunch more skill and savvy to do glue-in bolts well. Almost another level of craftsmanship.

I don't think it's another level, just different skills that become automatic with repetition.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: Same. I found that blowing, brushing, repeat, then covering the hole with duct tape to keep it clean worked best for me. It would sometimes take me a day to prep an entire route so I could get all the bolts glued with a single nozzle. So it's at least twice as much jugging and rapping and it takes longer. For sport routes though, I don't think of this as a problem. Seems better to think it through than to rap in and haphazardly slam in expansion bolts so you can send after lunch.

I totally agree with you that many commonly used glues set too fast. I've used them and, as you say, they make it more work! Change glues!

One reason I prefer and recommend the Hilti RE-500 is that it has a good gel-time. If I have the placements marked with chalk, I can start at the bottom and prep the rock (if necessary), drill, brush-blow (x3), inject, bolt, adjust, sculpt, wipe, etc. and then jug to the next mark without having the glue harden in the nozzle. I get it done in one pass without rushing.

In fact, on very overhanging sections I move slowly intentionally so the glue comes out with the consistency of toothpaste and stays in the hole. I called Hilti and confirmed that this wouldn't compromise its strength.

Supposedly I could climb it later that day, but usually I'm too knackered to try.

Steve "Crusher" Bartlett wrote:EDIT: thanks, John Byrnes, but yes this would be for placing on lead so glue-ins not really practical.

Right. One idea that's being kicked around is this:

When placing bolts on lead, place Legacy or similar bolts that are removable.

Then when/if they need replacing, you can remove them, drill out the hole and replace with a glue-in, if another legacy bolt isn't the right answer*.

• Several decades in the future it may be found that a legacy bolt in that particular environment isn't the right answer.

I dont recommend the RE-500 myself. It's not a bad product, but it cures red making the bolts extremely noticeable. I use the Simpson SET22. It's made in the USA (Riverside, CA), and it's a pure epoxy. SSET22 is certified for use in cracked concrete, and it's slightly stronger than the RE-500 (not that it really matters), but most importantly, it drys grey, not red. If you add dirt to the exposed epoxy after placing the bolt, you can get the epoxy to blend in with the rock making it look quite professional. Last, SET22 is less expensive than the RE-500, and you can buy it at any Home Depot or Lowes making it easy to find.

So maybe I missed this in the thread, but simply spray painting a stainless steel part will affect the corrosion resistance? The idea is that moisture will get trapped between the paint and the chromium oxide protective layer giving it more time to degrade the protective layer? Or are we only talking about prep methods that remove that layer before the paint is added?

20 kN wrote:I dont recommend the RE-500 myself. It's not a bad product, but it cures red making the bolts extremely noticeable. I use the Simpson SET22. It's made in the USA (Riverside, CA), and it's a pure epoxy. SSET22 is certified for use in cracked concrete, and it's slightly stronger than the RE-500 (not that it really matters), but most importantly, it drys grey, not red. If you add dirt to the exposed epoxy after placing the bolt, you can get the epoxy to blend in with the rock making it look quite professional. Last, SET22 is less expensive than the RE-500, and you can buy it at any Home Depot or Lowes making it easy to find.

Yes, RE-500 is bright red when it's fresh, and that's intentional. It is easy to see even in bad lighting and ensure you have good coverage and no voids. In a year it fades to a pastel "dusty rose" which blends in nicely with many rock types; no dirt required. Wish I had a photo of an older bolt.

I've heard lots of people on MP object to the red color, but maybe it's because they never go back to a route once they send. We've been using RE-500 for 5 years on Cayman Brac, where people complain they can't find the bolts!

It's also the only glue I've ever seen that bonds to titanium dioxide. Sayar, dos the SSET22 actually bond to Ti?

Greg Kuchyt wrote:So maybe I missed this in the thread, but simply spray painting a stainless steel part will affect the corrosion resistance? The idea is that moisture will get trapped between the paint and the chromium oxide protective layer giving it more time to degrade the protective layer? Or are we only talking about prep methods that remove that layer before the paint is added?

I don't know the specifics of the corrosion mechanisms, ask Jim T, but I think you'll find that if you don't remove the protective layer, most paints will not stick. And paints that do stick degrade the protective layer (to make them stick), so you're screwed either way.

John Byrnes wrote: Sayar, dos the SSET22 actually bond to Ti?

Between the other developer and I, we use T308+ and SET22 and neither of us have had any problem. Neither of the epoxies seem to suffer shrinkage, and they appear to bond true to the bolt. I have pull tested Ti bolts with SET22 in sample rock pieces, and not once has the epoxy bond ever failed before the bolt. In the case of the grade five Ti U-bolts, I would max out my pull tester at 9,000 lbf without breaking the bolt, rock or glue bond. I have never seen the glue bond fail in any test I have ever conducted on any bolt, titanium or otherwise.

Are you aware of an epoxy that failed when used with a Ti bolt?

20 kN wrote: Between the other developer and I, we use T308+ and SET22 and neither of us have had any problem. Neither of the epoxies seem to suffer shrinkage, and they appear to bond true to the bolt. I have pull tested Ti bolts with SET22 in sample rock pieces, and not once has the epoxy bond ever failed before the bolt. In the case of the grade five Ti U-bolts, I would max out my pull tester at 9,000 lbf without breaking the bolt, rock or glue bond. I have never seen the glue bond fail in any test I have ever conducted on any bolt, titanium or otherwise.

Sound good.

20 kN wrote: Are you aware of an epoxy that failed when used with a Ti bolt?

Not to my knowledge. The worry is with "binding mortars" that don't bond to Ti02. In my experience, not many things do.

One impressive test that was done: A special Ti bolt was made without any threads, dents, or other "teeth". Just a smooth shaft glued into a steel block with RE-500 and pull-tested. The bolt broke first. Now that's bonding to TiO2!

John Byrnes wrote: Sound good. Not to my knowledge. The worry is with "binding mortars" that don't bond to Ti02. In my experience, not many things do. One impressive test that was done: A special Ti bolt was made without any threads, dents, or other "teeth". Just a smooth shaft glued into a steel block with RE-500 and pull-tested. The bolt broke first. Now that's bonding to TiO2!

That is impressive, but how many tests were done? I recall a test where they did the same to some U-bolts and one pulled at 20kN or so, and all the others pulled out with less than 1kN.

Regardless, I think the important aspect is the groves or threads in the bolt. Epoxies arnt even really designed to "stick" to the bolt per se, they are not "glues" like rubber cement or Elmer's. They are designed to provide resistance to movement via mechanical keying in the threads of the anchors, and I suspect you already know this.

I recall a thread right here on MP where some dude went and bought a bunch of 1/2" bar and bent it into U bolts. From the surface, the bolts looked like they would hold 100kN, but come to find out many pulled out by hand because the dude dident thread or key any portion of the bolt! That's not the first time I have seen that either. However, with proper threading or pressing, any two-part anchoring epoxy designed for cracked concrete should be sufficiently strong with any bolt of any material.