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Leader's Pack - Design Survey

Original Post
Josh Kornish · · Whitefish, MT · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 800

Hey fellas,

This spring I made myself a pack for climbing 6-pitch+ routes in Blodgett Canyon. Over the course of the year I've been making refinements to the design, testing the various prototypes on longer granite routes around the PNW

So far I've been happy with how the pack carries a load and climbs.

I begin every bag design with a "form study" where I consider the ergonomics and positioning of the bag. I designed this bag to ride above the harness, between the shoulders allowing full arm-swing while also allowing full head clearance.

Below are some photos of my latest prototype.

The only external features I have I really use are two haul loops, a side access zipper, compression clip at the top, and a sternum strap.

For myself I prefer a clean back for tighter spaces. I never utilize pack daisy chains or waistbelts. I have a detachable rope catch but I usually either take the rope inside or the rack (in addition to my personal gear)
I'm still considering the best system for lashing a helmet to the outside for the approach.

In the past I've received great feedback from the MP community that helped me to improve my designs. I greatly appreciate feedback anyone may have.
I've been climbing for several years and I don't want to let my personal bias blind me from a better design.

If you are interested in offering your input please take my ten question survery:

Survey

Here is where I'm currently at in the development phase

Side zipper hood detail

Side profile, zipper

Slightly tapered pack body

Compression clip, haul loops

Pull cord, extension sleeve

Sternum strap, H2O tube holder, etc

Pack back, Internal foam frame

Haul loop, head clearance

Inside liner, pocket

Other side for clarity of design

Feel free to also leave any feedback on this thread.

Cheers!

Max Forbes · · Colorado · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 108

Normally this stuff is annoying, but I think this pack looks awesome. Sleek, looks well built, and functional. I'd buy one

Josh Kornish · · Whitefish, MT · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 800
Max Forbes wrote:Normally this stuff is annoying, but I think this pack looks awesome. Sleek, looks well built, and functional. I'd buy one
Thanks for the feedback, Max. I understand that this can be viewed as an advertisement so I try to be as explicit as I can in the title. That said I genuinely appreciate all the suggestions I've gotten in the past and already with this survey.

I really do gain a lot of insight into the way others do things. I've been climbing for 8 years but I'm always learning from other partners. I'm always changing the way I do things as I learn of more efficient means.

I also feel that whenever I've bought gear there has always been something I wish they did differently or could be improved. Shop talk...

And I may as well put this out there. If there are any other climbers on here that have a keen eye for design and would be interested in sharing knowledge/ collaborating please give me a shout. I'm always open to that.
James T · · Livermore · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 80

Looks really great, if I hadn't just finished making my own I would have snagged one.

As far as ergonomics go, consider sewing the shoulder straps at more of an outward angle. This will help them lay flush against the traps, opposed to twisting a bit like in your pictures. Not a huge deal for light loads, but noticible when heavier. Another way to accomplish this is with an angled "inverted V" shaped shoulder strap seam.

Other than that, very sweet pack

Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71

Since your billing it as a leader pack, two words. Gear loops.

Josh Kornish · · Whitefish, MT · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 800

Great feedback, James!

Actually I think this may be an interesting design question. And please do let me know if my thinking is flawed.

Loading the pack downward you are right that is is loaded slightly more heavily to the neck side. My lady-friend was taking photos and I think it looks a little bit more pronounced than it really is.

What I was considering with the angle of the strap is the ergonomics when climbing. When you raise your shoulder or arm slightly it allows you to keep the load a little more balanced.

Again, this logic seems correct to me but then again my High School physics classic was a circus so... haha

Let me know what you think! I've had a lot of different frames try on the packs from small 5'2" ladies, albiet broard shoulders, and guys up to 5'11"
I'm 5'9" and it fits perfectly for me.

I'm going to definitely take a second look at the straps and see if my thinking is sound.

Again thanks for the great feedback!

Josh Kornish · · Whitefish, MT · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 800

Thanks for the feedback, Gription. I'm going to make myself a pack geared more towards longer routes with long blocks of aid. I currently use the BD Zodiac for walls and it's great piece. I'll definitely think about how I can incorporate some gear loops into this design!

Brie Abram · · Celo, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 493

One small detail I love in certain packs and miss in others is a bit of elastic in the sternum strap. Makes all the difference in the world in comfort to me when I'm breathing hard. At the very least please make sure your sternum strap is long enough. Some of us have either breasts or muscles in our chest. A short inelastic sternum strap is one of the few things I hate about the Arc Alpha FL packs (besides the shitty shock cord tool/crampon rig).

BTW: I've had one of your chalk bags for years, and it's going strong. My wife had you custom make it from a coffee burlap sack. Thanks!

DavisMeschke Guillotine · · Pinedale, WY · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 225

How about ice tool loops? You prolly aren't going for that side of things but I love having the option of a pack that I can use all year round. I also second the gear loops. I saw that there's an internal zipper pocket, can that be used to put a water bladder in? Again, not a make or break design element but it's something nice to have.

JCM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 115

What's the material? Is it something that would stand up to hauling the pack up with a tag-line?

A pack that is comfortable and light to climb in, but you also feel OK about hauling, can be a rare thing.

James T · · Livermore · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 80

"Actually I think this may be an interesting design question. And please do let me know if my thinking is flawed"

Not at all - billing it as a leader pack and not an approach pack this makes sense. And to that extent, I've had similar packs with straps like that and have never had pain in my traps anyway.

Josh Kornish · · Whitefish, MT · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 800

Brian -
Great idea with the elastic sternum. I've had an Arc pack with such a sternum and I'll use elastic from now on. I'm happy to hear that burlap bag is still holding up well! :)

Davis -
I'm aiming for a rock specific pack with this design. I'm definitely going to make an ice pack with tool attachments in a larger size. Kind of going slowly up in size with the designs.

JCM -
The material in this specific pack is an 840d Ballistic Nylon with a 210d nylon ripstop shroud. It is specifically for a bouldering/ sport climbing friend. It's great against abrasion but certainly a little towards the lighter end of the spectrum.

I can make these in any fabric and I'd recommend a 1050d ballistic nylon for a good balance. 1680d ballistic nylon would be best for true hauling.

James -
I specifically remember thinking the same thing when I was working with my mentor on a pack for Wild Things. We were looking at a BD and he pointed out that this was for the swinging motion. I'm constantly revising my designs and I'll definitely think of ways to perfect the harnessing.

Austin Baird · · SLC, Utah · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 95

Great-looking pack. What about a small pocket that's accessible on the front of the pack, like on the pack below? That's something that I love about trail-running packs and I don't know why more packs don't incorporate them.

Pack

Eric M Parks · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 165
Austin Baird wrote:Great-looking pack. What about a small pocket that's accessible on the front of the pack, like on the pack below? That's something that I love about trail-running packs and I don't know why more packs don't incorporate them.
I agree with the recomendation for shoulder strap pockets; I hate removing a pack to get something small out of it.
Chris Simrell · · Leavenworth, WA · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 115

Great pack!

Regarding what was said above about not liking having to take a pack off to grab something - yes trail running packs have front pockets that are nice for this, however that design feature gets in the way of "technical" climbing (taking a sling off your chest at a stance, etc.). I'm a huge fan of having a zip pocket on the OUTside of packs so that your partner (whether on route or on the trail) can grab a small item for you without you having to remove the pack. Arc Alpha FL and Patagonia Linked 16 are two packs that have this feature.

keep it up!

id love to see this with six small sewn loops in the front (three each in two rows) to allow for a quick DIY shock cord crampon attachment. nice for early summer alpine in PNW and allows for winter ice climbing when one stores tools across the top in the rope catch.

Cheers

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

I would want a waist strap if I am going to climb with that stuff. I need to be able to pull the weight as close in as possible to maintain balance on the route.

Zac St Jules · · New Hampshire · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 1,188
DavisMeschke wrote:How about ice tool loops? You prolly aren't going for that side of things but I love having the option of a pack that I can use all year round. I also second the gear loops. I saw that there's an internal zipper pocket, can that be used to put a water bladder in? Again, not a make or break design element but it's something nice to have.
+1

I wont even think about purchasing a pack if it doesnt have ice tool loops and some sort of velcro or elastic towards the top of the pack to secure the tool handles.
Tico · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 0

I would ignore 100% of these suggestions. Keep it simple.

Bang Nhan · · Charlottesville, VA · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 35
Tico wrote:I would ignore 100% of these suggestions. Keep it simple.
I agree with Tico on keeping it simple and compact. I initially think the same as others about having the ice tools loops on the pack, but again, this pack will be perfect for leading rock, so no needs for the extra loops. There are already plenty of small pack out there that have all the whistles and bells, but
not many pack that are simple and sleek looking like yours, especially with the robust and the sturdy built. I think the closest pack is the Cilo Gear 20 L worksack.

Cheers!
Ryan Palo · · Bend, oregon · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 605

Love it. If it packs a pair of shoes and costs less than this patagonia pack, im sold. patagonia.com/us/product/li…

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

I like it the way it is. Keep it below $75 and I'll buy one.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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