Shiprock... a Closing Adventure

Healyje wrote: Untrue and a completely unfortunate attitude.

OK... I shall bite. Do you have any information on run ins with the locals? I would be genuinely interested to hear some.

Lee Davis wrote: OK... I shall bite. Do you have any information on run ins with the locals? I would be genuinely interested to hear some.

My wife is a tribal member - Colville, not Navajo - but having spoken with the Navajo parks officials several times they said they've had to turn away a number of parties and they do get requests quite frequently and most people actually do respect their wishes that they not climb.

If climbers want it and Monuments open maybe they should consider helping establish more Native climbers and lend a hand elsewhere on the rez like Cedar and Alex did recently.

R&I wrote:The duo ended their journey on the Navajo Reservation in Arizona, where they put themselves to work helping to install solar energy systems for remote homes. "Alex has launched a non-profit called Honnold Foundation, which he is using to funnel cash into some alternative-energy solar projects that he feels strongly about," Wright said. "This year one of his big goals was to get more directly involved with one of these projects, instead of just throwing money at it. Ending on the Navajo Nation seemed like a good opportunity to raise awareness through a film and actually help hands-on with a Navajo solar project that one of his sponsors, Goal Zero, had helped fund in the past." As a bonus, the two got to climb half a dozen towers on the Navajo Nation that are normally off-limits, including a first ascent and two first free ascents.

And from their Navajo Guide:

Quentin Tutt wrote:Just my two cents... The Navajo Nation still has it's ban or restriction on climbing on the Navajo Nation in place. Cedar just happened to speak to the right people and should you pursue this avenue (in which I do recommend) please ask and not poach climbing on our reservation. During our tenure with Cedar and Alex, we still ran into some troubles and even though I'm the 'Navajo Guide' who did take them out there, there are some that still will take advantage of you since those outside of the tribe are 'outsiders'. Please ask for permission when attempting to climb on the Navajo Nation as there are Navajo climbers that can get you access and that's the way we prefer it. Also, we had a blast witnessing these two climbers tear it up on our reservation. We hope we can be of some assistance again down the road. Please visit our Dine (Navajo) Rock Climbers Coalition page found on Facebook to get more info on how you can climb on our reservation.

The first all Navajo ascent of the Totem Pole took place a few months back. They asked for permission and were denied. So they did what the rest of us would do, snuck in and climbed it. Good for them.

This pertains only to Monument Valley and not the rest of the Rez, but according to the tribal park management the spires are only sacred up to a certain dollar amount. This is evidenced by the numerous requests from regular climbers being denied, yet red bull can pay & will gadd can climb it. Lots of other examples too, Vertical Limit movie, red bull airplane race, etc.

Those spires are sacred to some of as as climbers too. If you do your homework you too can pull off a spiritual ascent.

Flex wrote:If you do your homework you too can pull off a spiritual ascent.

Ah, the DT 'sacred ascent' defense. Equally unfortunate. And what Navajo climbers do isn't relevant - it's their nation and for them to work out among themselves and their tribe. Supporting them in that is great and could lead to changes over time; going and poaching it as an outsider isn't and never will be constructive.

I don't know what you mean by DT defense. To each their own though. If you don't want to climb there, then don't.

Flex wrote:I don't know what you mean by DT defense. To each their own though. If you don't want to climb there, then don't.

The Devils Tower 'sacred ascent' nonsense. Actually, it's not to each their own; it's closed to climbing, breaking the closure just insures perpetuating the policy, threatens access issues on native lands around the country where it is currently permitted, and is just mindlessly selfish and ignorant behavior. Sure, be an complete poaching asshole contributing nothing to the situation - to each their own.

4 years ago, a group of us went to climb Shiprock. Got in touch with a Navajo group of 'guides' and we were really put off by what they wanted to charge to take us to the start of the climb. Permission to climb the peak was implied if we paid the money, but their 'guiding' was only to the start of the route. We went the next day and just did the climb ourselves. We never made the top because we got rained off. Down at the car, a tribal deputy was waiting for us, and I think he was put on our tail by the 'guides'. But, it cost us less to pay him than the guides wanted. There is nothing 'sacred' about the mountain, except to us climbers. I don't like the word 'poaching'. It is no more an affront to climb a classic secretly than a gringo marrying an Indian would be. JTP

Healyje wrote: The Devils Tower 'sacred ascent' nonsense. Actually, it's not to each their own; it's closed to climbing, breaking the closure just insures perpetuating the policy, threatens access issues on native lands around the country where it is currently permitted, and is just mindlessly selfish and ignorant behavior. Sure, be an complete poaching asshole contributing nothing to the situation - to each their own.

Wow you've got serious issues you need to work out if you're getting this upset about it. There are far worse injustices occurring in the world than people climbing on rocks.

What do you say to the Navajo climbers who have "poached" ascents?

How are people who live nearby these climbs negatively impacted? Now I understand that if you leave a gate open and allow their sheep to wander off you are effectively taking food off their plates. But most people who do climb on the Rez are sensitive to the locals' way of life and wouldn't do anything to harm the welfare or wellbeing of the folks who live there. Certainly, climbing a route directly above a Hogan is not cool, but a remote route? Who is harmed by people connecting with the land, be they natives (re: the poached Navajo ascent of the Totem Pole), or otherwise?

..........In 1973, Cliff Naveaux and I drove out to Enchanted Mesa (the mesa, not the tower) to climb it. After the climb, I was driving his sister's Mazda RX7 back to Albuquerque when a State Trooper stopped me for doing 110mph, in a 55 zone. I explained to the trooper that we were climbers and had left our wallets at home, so as not to lose them on the climb (imagine! 110 mph, and no drivers license). I told him about the climb of Enchanted Mesa, describing the tall crack that had the ancient ladder, now just holes on either side of the crack. He was fascinated to talk to someone who had been to the top (and, he was a Navajo). There I was, without my license, but he gave me a big thumbs up, and let us go. Of course, it is on the Acoma reservation, but he was excited to hear all about it, all the same… nice guy.

Enchanted Mesa, Acoma Reservation

These threads always lead to the inevitable shouting match between the "hey, climbing these rocks offends the Indians, only assholes jeopardizing access climb here" folks and the "hey, climbing these rocks gives me spiritual enlightenment and the Indians don't seem to care anyway, so I'll continue to climb here" folks.

Every. Single. Time.

To move things in a positive direction, it would be neat to organize a "Shiprock Crag Cleanup". Shiprock itself needs no cleaning, but the roads around the crag are a dumping ground, with loads of rusty cans and broken glass. We walked around the crag one day, and quickly filled our packs to bursting with trash. It would be great if it was a Navajo/Anglo joint effort! Is there an Access Fund rep in Farmington?

George,

The Dine Rock Climbing Coalition Guys would be psyched I imagine for something like that, and they could help with organizational efforts as well.

Count me in, if it ever comes about! Lee Davis

I have a lot of respect for Native Americans ("some of my best friends are Navajos" well, not really). But I have been confronted by the stark reality of people who see a buck to be made. I have a copy of the laws and regulations of the Navajo Tribe (it is available as a 4 volume set, or on CD). I have the CD. There is no place where they define the legality of climbing within the reservation. It is NOT a law that you cannot climb, but rather a tribal guideline. It is against the law for the Tribal Police to hinder a climbing party in any way, but, nobody seems to appreciate this fact. The rescue party in 1970 were almost arrested by a Tribal Policeman when they went to retrieve their gear, a day or two after the rescue. They talked their way out of it, but it was not a law! Things went crazy, and later the sacred nature of the peaks became ingrained in our culture. Sacred, smacred. I climb for myself, not for the enrichment of Indians. Sorry to lean towards the negative. I am from Tennessee, and would enjoy being on a cleanup of the peak, if it meant that I could hook up with someone and finally do it! JTP

Just throwing this out there....super down to go climb shiprock if anybody needs a partner. Climbing that formation would be a privilege and would only show my respect for it. I have no qualms.

I would also be super down for a cleanup day.

Don Ferris wrote:Climbing that formation would be a privilege and would only show my respect for it.

It really isn't about whether climbers respect or revere the rock, it's about their willingness to show respect for the Navajo people and any decision they make around how they choose to govern their nation.

John Phillips wrote:There is no place where they define the legality of climbing within the reservation. It is NOT a law that you cannot climb, but rather a tribal guideline. It is against the law for the Tribal Police to hinder a climbing party in any way, but, nobody seems to appreciate this fact.

Utterly and completely wrong. The a 'no climbing' policy up on their park website and that policy does in fact have the force and weight of law. By the same token the Tribal Police do have complete authority to stop climbing parties.

George Bell wrote:To move things in a positive direction, it would be neat to organize a "Shiprock Crag Cleanup". Shiprock itself needs no cleaning, but the roads around the crag are a dumping ground, with loads of rusty cans and broken glass. We walked around the crag one day, and quickly filled our packs to bursting with trash. It would be great if it was a Navajo/Anglo joint effort! Is there an Access Fund rep in Farmington?

Helpful, but I'd say the most helpful thing to do to work towards changing attitudes and the closure would be sustained engagement with young Navajos who are interested in climbing. Climbing was a part of their lives and traditions and they were key in helping build our cities; helping them reclaim that tradition on their own lands on a sustained basis of engagement would be far more productive.

Also, finding a way to contribute in unrelated ways like Cedar and Alex did with solar installations would also go a long way towards changing attitudes.

There have been Navajo ascents of Shiprock. In regard to the existence of laws banning climbing, I think you both are right. Within tribal parks (Monument Valley) there are documented bans. On the Rez as a whole there is no official law against rock climbing.

John Phillips wrote: "Climbing was a part of their lives and traditions and they were key in helping build our cities" Nonsense! Are you refering to the Mohawks that built the Empire State Building? There has NEVER been a tradition of climbing among the Navajos. They always gazed at the peaks from a distance. You obviously have no grounding in Navajo culture and history.

Various Canadian Iroquois tribes, primarily Quebec Mohawks, worked high steel in Manhattan, but they were far from alone with with other tribes and a fair number of Navajos in the mix. In contemporary times, and from Chicago west, I've personally known more Navajo ironworkers by far than from any other tribe.

John Phillips wrote:Are you a climber? I suspect not, for you would have a lot more reverance for the peaks if you were.

I am a climber, on year forty-one at the moment. But I do have zero "reverence for peaks" and wouldn't bother to summit one if that summit were fifty feet above the last interesting free climbing.

John Phillips wrote:I suspect that your claim to fame is that you have married an Indian. Good for you. But, please don't make the mistake that it gives you a special "awareness" of the world. It helps in the kitchen, of course.

I have no claim to fame, nor any interest in one, and that I'm married to a tribal member merely means I've learned more about a three hundred year legacy of genocide the remnants of which are still in play to this day. I've also learned more about the ignorance and insensitivities of assholes like you who would make a 'kitchen' quip about a woman would has more talent, brains, and raw resilience than you could ever dream of. You have no idea and the disrespect for Native rights relative to climbing is, unfortunately, boorishly common.

Flex wrote:On the Rez as a whole there is no official law against rock climbing.

There is clear policy against climbing on any part of the Navajo Nation and that policy carries the full weight of law.

It doesn't get any clearer than this.

Lee Davis wrote:Well, you are starting to piss me off. How about people camping out at the base of Shiprock?

Well, I think you are mistaking me for someone who cares if you are pissed off.

Camping policy