When to switch from ring locks to tight hands

Hi,

I'm trying to climb a gradually widening crack that starts at off fingers. It's in a gym so there are no pods or constrictions or anything like that. It overhangs maybe 5-10 degrees.

Everyone else I have seen do it is using tight hand jambs but I can't make that work for me. I've managed to make some progress with ring locks but I'm not totally there yet. I can deal with the crack where it is 1 1/8" but where it widens to 1 1/4" I have problems. I'm wondering if I should give up on the ring locks and try to work on the tight hands instead, or should be switching to the tight hands earlier. I'm male and have what I consider average to smaller hands.

Also can someone clarify what a ratchet is and how it's different from a ring lock? What getting 3 fingers plus thumb in the crack. Wrapping the fingers around the thumb like hooks, with most of the work being done by the index finger hooking around the thumb and pulling my elbow down. Is that a ring lock or a ratchet?

(Feel free to move this if it's shouldn't be in the trad forum , just seems like a appropriate place to ask about crack technique despite the location of the crack)

Joshua Correa wrote:Hi, I'm trying to climb a gradually widening crack that starts at off fingers. It's in a gym so there are no pods or constrictions or anything like that. It overhangs maybe 5-10 degrees. Everyone else I have seen do it is using tight hand jambs but I can't make that work for me. I've managed to make some progress with ring locks but I'm not totally there yet. I can deal with the crack where it is 1 1/8" but where it widens to 1 1/4" I have problems. I'm wondering if I should give up on the ring locks and try to work on the tight hands instead, or should be switching to the tight hands earlier. I'm male and have what I consider average to smaller hands. Also can someone clarify what a ratchet is and how it's different from a ring lock? What getting 3 fingers plus thumb in the crack. Wrapping the fingers around the thumb like hooks, with most of the work being done by the index finger hooking around the thumb and pulling my elbow down. Is that a ring lock or a ratchet? (Feel free to move this if it's shouldn't be in the trad forum , just seems like a appropriate place to ask about crack technique despite the location of the crack)

A ratchet is when you insert your middle three fingers (some use all four) parallel with the crack, then turn them inward, perpendicular to the crack. They wont be secure in the size you're climbing. Finger rackets and stacks are more secure in smaller sizes like 0.4 Camalot.

He talks about ratchets starting at 1:10 in this video. He refers to a ratchet as a "thumbs down jam."

vimeo.com/40346006

Ring locks are shown here:

climbing.com/skill/learn-th…

Technically what the article shoes is a thumb cam (finger stack as the photo below calls it), not a ring lock, but they are almost interchangeable. This shows the differences:



Anyway, finger rachets are typically around 0.3 - 0.4 Camalot, and ring locks and thumb stacks are larger, about 0.75 Camalot or so. It looks like the size you're having trouble with is right around a very tight #1 or loose .75. That can be a tricky size. I cant tell you which is better, ring locks or hands, because I dont know the exact size of your hands. All I can suggest is keep trying both until you find which is more comfortable.

If the ring lock is not working, you can try a ring lock with multiple fingers (which is basically what the photo above calls a thumb stack). Instead of using your thumb and pointer finger, use your thumb, pointer and middle finger in a ring to create more width.

Crack climbing in "off sizes" is often about managing pain.

I have no idea what you mean by "ratchet". It sounds like you are looking for some magic formula that says you should switch from locks to hands at "x" size, but the truth is you have to figure that out for yourself.

Sometimes in between the ring lock to thin hands I will have 4 fingers against one side of the crack and the thumb against the opposite side of the crack. The forces oppose each other. Almost always with thumbs down. And hoping for a thin hands jam or better. Make sure to take as much weight off of your hands with the best feet you can get.

Dealing with your unique handsize is the crux of all crack climbing. Your horrendous crack is someone else's walk up (within reason). At some other crack your hand size is just lovely, while those with smaller hands are cursing & working through rattly hand/fist wonkiness. C'est le vie

All that being said, play around with your locks. Try things that aren't expressly mentioned - there's no wrong way. A guide once told me "This sounds like a stupid Zen saying, which it is, but it's still useful. You want your hand to become the 'no-space'. Think of the crack & how you can make your hand fit the space as best as possible."It helped me think of new possibilities.
Good luck!

Others have chimed up about thumbs down techniques (ring locks/stacks)

However the off fingers are quite challenging for thumbs up positions but you can reach farther with the lower hand thumbs up

One way i found that works for me is the pinky stack for thumbs up around purple camalot ... Give it a try and see if it works for you

Basically you stack the pinky under the ring finger and that becomes yr pivot/lock point

Pinky stack

;)

bearbreeder wrote:Others have chimed up about thumbs down techniques (ring locks/stacks) However the off fingers are quite challenging for thumbs up positions but you can reach farther with the lower hand thumbs up One way i found that works for me is the pinky stack for thumbs up around purple camalot ... Give it a try and see if it works for you Basically you stack the pinky under the ring finger and that becomes yr pivot/lock point ;)

Mind blown! How have I not though of this

20 kN wrote: Anyway, finger rachets are typically around 0.3 - 0.4 Camalot

Typically, that size is either tips or good fingerlocks for most people.

The two side by side photos at the bottom of 20kN post look like have the captions wrong - to me the photo on the left looks more like a ring lock and the one on the right looks like stacks.

Thin hands (#2 Friend size) can be tricky. Depending on the situation, ringlocks could feel way more secure than thin hands (i.e. karate chops or knifeblades), e.g. overhanging crack with no feet.

doligo wrote: Typically, that size is either tips or good fingerlocks for most people. The two side by side photos at the bottom of 20kN post look like have the captions wrong - to me the photo on the left looks more like a ring lock and the one on the right looks like stacks. Thin hands (#2 Friend size) can be tricky. Depending on the situation, ringlocks could feel way more secure than thin hands (i.e. karate chops or knifeblades), e.g. overhanging crack with no feet.

The one of the left is definitely a thumb stack. You can clearly see him stacking two fingers on top of the thumb. The one on the right is technically a ring lock too, although you can also do a ring lock my stacking your pointer finger on top of your thumb. However, a thumb stack and ring lock are very similar anyway so some people would just call both of those photos ring locks.

.4 is typically good fingers, yes, but you can still run good fingers with a thumbs down approach (e.g. finger ratchet). I typically run all finger cracks thumbs down because it's more secure, although I'll interchange to thumbs up as needed for certain moves.

Agreed it's a personal thing as to which jamb to use. Just wanted to make sure the ring locks, or thumb stack I guess, is not totally the wrong thing. I am doing what the photo refers to as a thumb stack. Seems like I'm within the general range of that jamb for most people.

The comment about it maybe being more about managing pain in that size rings true to me. Part of my problem is that I'm spending a fair amount of time trying to master the jamb so I end up hanging on each one longer than I should. When I'm trying to send I think I should just go fast till it's good or at least manageable tight hands for me.

I'm still confused about the ratchet. Some of you have described it as for smaller crack than a ring lock .4 to .5 c4 but this article call it bigger than good ring locks an a tight .75.

stephdavis.co/blog/overhang…

Thanks for all the responses

Joshua Correa wrote: Some of you have described it as for smaller crack than a ring lock .4 to .5 c4 but this article call it bigger than good ring locks an a tight .75. stephdavis.co/blog/overhang… Thanks for all the responses

You can use a finger ratchet in .75 just like you can use a hand jam in #3, it's just not an optimal size for that technique. In the .75 size, you start to get into ring lock territory, and if you can get a good ring lock it is going to be way more secure than a finger ratchet. However, ring locks and thumb stacks are tricky. For me, they require a very exact crack width to feel secure. If you dont hit that width, then they are insecure. If I just cant get one to stick, which happens sometimes on .75, then a finger ratchet might be my only other option. It's not optimal for the size, but .75 is a rather tricky size in general and typically nothing is optimal in that size range. .75 and .5 are typically the hardest sizes under 5.13 for most people.

in this size range, for me it really depends on the subtle features in the crack. in particular, any sort of divot or recess that i can get the tip of my thumb into, or perhaps the big knuckle of my index finger. generally i will make the moves using the thumbstacks (for slightly better reach) and then try to place gear off the tight hands (feels less committing). i will also add my ring finger for a '3 fingered' thumbstack quite a bit when they start getting loose.

in corners i usually use josh's method (high hand stacking, low hand tight hands, shuffling), on splitters (that aren't leaning or otherwise weird) i usually climb hand over hand.

for me, the tough part is usually stopping to place gear - feels very committing as the feet sometimes feel marginal if the crack is steep.

I use tight hands much sooner than most people I know (my hands aren't particular thin), usually starting with the mid-range green camalot size. The way to make the jam better on splitters (besides a lot of sport climbing on more open handed holds) is to shift your weight side to side as you move to bend the hand/wrist backwards and enable a bit of camming.

In the scenario you're describing, I'd definitely shuffle with the high hand thumbs down, in whatever jam works, low hand thumbs up in a lousy tight-hand jam.

One thing you can do sometimes is to pinch constrictions between the base of your thumb and the base of your index finger. That can make that lower hand jam just a little better, and maybe allow you to push down on it when it comes time to move your feet.

Confidential to 20kn and others: everybody always gets into the mode of talking about cam sizes when talking about jam sizes. That needlessly complicates things. Stop it. #1 friend is thumbstacks for me, but a #0.5 camalot gets into ring locks, while I can get decent fingerlocks on a red alien. They're all ostensibly the same size. Talk about techniques, not tools.

Jake Jones wrote:... depending on how the crack is oriented, to get through tough rattly fingers/tight hands sections, I'll have a lead hand, and a bottom hand. The lead hand is up high, usually in a thumb stack (which I also call a ring lock- but whatever, you get the idea) and remains in a thumb down orientation. Bottom hand usually stays thumbs up, and I get as much of my hand in as possible, using opposing pressure to help, pushing with my fingers. It's fairly insecure, but doesn't need to be bomber. I get it tight enough so that I can get a good foot hold (whether jamming or finding a face hold), then quickly move my lead hand up. The lead hand is what maintains good contact. The lower hand is used just long enough to reset the lead hand. Basically, in this hard size, I sort of climb it like you would a diagonal or horizontally oriented crack- never crossing one hand over the other, only bumping one jam up under the other, then resetting the top jam...

Doesn't this pump your lead hand out? Or, do you only use this method to get through the crux portions of a finger section?

Here's how I differentiate between what I call a ring lock and what I call a thumb-stack:

If a pad of my finger is touching my thumbnail, thumbstack.
If a pad of my thumb is touching my fingernail, ringlock.

YMMV. I switch from stacks to thin hands about the time I can get my hand in the crack up to the web of my thumb. Once I can get that deep, thumbs down thin hands become reasonable. Below that I am probably in rings/stacks, much preferring a thumbstack over a ringlock if there is an option.

Thumbstacks and ringlocks are usually only solid from full extension to about your chin. Once you pull them below that, it forces your elbow up and you start to lose the camming and ability to pull straight downward on them. That's one of many reasons people use a mixed technique in corners with top in a stack and bottom in thin hand.

Lots of good info in this thread. Can someone explain exactly what's happening in the ring lock picture posted by 20kn above, as far as what each finger is accomplishing, how each finger/thumb is creating pressure, etc.? I'm having a hard time understanding this lock as the orientation of the thumb seems odd to me.

I have slightly larger than average male fingers, and on 1"- 1&1/8" cracks I just do a thinner version of the thumb stack shown above, and am able to sink it in a little deeper and more securely for 1&1/4" cracks but would like to try something new if I can understand what's going on in that ring lock picture.

Advice is worth what you pay, and this is for free, but I love ring locks

Ring locks are about creating expansion by camming your fingers with a thumb assist. As you pull your palm down and pronate your hand (turning back to the sky) you get more expansion. Reaching with the thumb helps create the motion as well as a nice little latch to help secure the thing. The tighter you pull towards making a fist, the more expansion you get. It is very similar to finger jamming in the motion except you are flexing your knuckles to bring the thumb in

As to what is compressing/holding the rock... Depends on the depth and flair of the crack. For shallow thin narrow ring locks it could be just the first knuckles of two fingers and a thumb. Something like the photo. For deeper wider more secure ring locks it will be finger pads and second knuckles and thumb

doligo wrote: Typically, that size is either tips or good fingerlocks for most people. The two side by side photos at the bottom of 20kN post look like have the captions wrong - to me the photo on the left looks more like a ring lock and the one on the right looks like stacks. Thin hands (#2 Friend size) can be tricky. Depending on the situation, ringlocks could feel way more secure than thin hands (i.e. karate chops or knifeblades), e.g. overhanging crack with no feet.

There is no "typical" in what sizes are good for what techniques - it's going to vary widely from person to person. Don't get caught up in what a certain size crack is "supposed" to be, it really doesn't make sense to talk about techniques in relation to specific cam sizes. Figure out what techniques work for YOU in various sizes, this might take some trial and error.

When should you switch from ring locks to tight hands? When you can get a tight hand jam that is more secure than a ringlock. At what crack size that happens, you'll have to figure out.

JohnSol wrote:Reaching with the thumb helps create the motion as well as a nice little latch to help secure the thing. The tighter you pull towards making a fist, the more expansion you get. It is very similar to finger jamming in the motion except you are flexing your knuckles to bring the thumb in

Thanks for the response John - if I understand you correctly, shouldn't 20kn's ringlock photo above have the thumb nail tucked underneath the pad of the pointer finger to achieve this expansion? The photo shows the pad of the thumb and pad of the pointer finger in contact, in which case I can't wrap my head around what is actually going on.

chuck becker wrote: Thanks for the response John - if I understand you correctly, shouldn't 20kn's ringlock photo above have the thumb nail tucked underneath the pad of the pointer finger to achieve this expansion? The photo shows the pad of the thumb and pad of the pointer finger in contact, in which case I can't wrap my head around what is actually going on.

The thumb goes over the finger in an idealized sense. In practice, as stated here a lot, whatever works depending on hand and crack size.

The thumb over finger achieves a more secure hold and more expansion because you are bringing more muscle to the game to make a tighter "fist". The fingers and outside palm are expanding by bearing down, not the thumb meat

Check out the Steph Davis post and start to use them, you will figure it out