Placing cams as passive pro

Dave Alie wrote:The key is that only double-axle cams can be used as passive pro. I've never seen a good spot to use one that way. They're bulky, and awkward to place passively, when hexes usually work much better in the same spots.

cam stops? This is totally false.

Aaron Martinuzzi wrote:...what's up with cams that have full-strength cam stops (e.g. Wild Country Friends, Metolius TCUs, Mastercams, DMM 4CUs)? DMM, on their website, actually gives a passive strength rating for their 4CUs, at 10kN.

I needed to do more reading before posting. That's what's up with those.

Looking at the DMM Dragons and Demons side by side explains Longs comment, I believe. The original publish date of "How to Rock Climb" is 1989 and your edition and some of the material may have changed since the comment. If you look at the double axle cams the body of the lobe is hallowed out to allow for it to move in relation to the opposing axle. That hollowed out section creates a natural stop in the cam, prevent the lobe from subluxing/displacing upward. On a single axle cam there is nothing to prevent this motion...UNTIL manufacturers place stops on the lobes, like the interlocking protrusions on the inside of the Demon Cams. This is only my two cents, I am not engineer, but I did bivy outside of a Holiday Inn Express last night.

although many others think it's stupid, this is a feature I look for in a cam and part of the reason i dislike aliens. I've used a passively placed WC tech friend in limestone in a pocket that wouldn't take a tricam where the pocket got larger as it got deeper.

Basically, i could put the cam the pocket in fully retracted but as soon as i let go of the trigger it is too big to fall out of the pocket. given the burly look of WC's full strength camstops, I wasn't about to shit my pants either.

On the other hand, if I was climbing past a blue WC zero (also full strength camstops) placed like this, it may be a brown point

Unless you really know what you're doing, you should probably not be placing cams passively and even if you do, it should be pro of a last resort. I suspect a lot of this sort of thing happens more frequently than it should mainly because a lot of folks today tend to favor cams over passive pro and lack the requisite passive skills and mindset.

Overall, any preference for cams over passive pro is basically getting things way ass-backwards and folks so afflicted should work on their passive skills.

Healyje wrote:Unless you really know what you're doing, you should probably not be placing cams passively and even if you do, it should be pro of a last resort. I suspect a lot of this sort of thing happens more frequently than it should mainly because a lot of folks today tend to favor cams over passive pro and lack the requisite passive skills and mindset. Overall, any preference for cams over passive pro is basically getting things way ass-backwards and folks so afflicted should work on their passive skills.

You don't have kids, do you?

I often disagree with you, but have come to respect your depth of knowledge. Question though- are you interested in sharing that knowledge or just prefer to be able to say "I told you so" while watching the carnage?

If the former, might I humbly suggest telling/showing folks the better way to do things rather than implying they are idiots?

For example,
"Placing passive pro is an advanced skill cultivated by experienced climbers because the gear is lighter, often more trustworthy and frankly more fun to place. The learning curve is not overly burdensome, but does require a commitment to being a truly competent climber."

Mark E Dixon wrote: You don't have kids, do you? I often disagree with you, but have come to respect your depth of knowledge. Question though- are you interested in sharing that knowledge or just prefer to be able to say "I told you so" while watching the carnage? If the former, might I humbly suggest telling/showing folks the better way to do things rather than implying they are idiots? For example, "Placing passive pro is an advanced skill cultivated by experienced climbers because the gear is lighter, often more trustworthy and frankly more fun to place. The learning curve is not overly burdensome, but does require a commitment to being a truly competent climber."

Healyje's entire schtick is a pompous "I'm better than you attitude" coupled with "Kids these days".

He doesn't and won't expand beyond that. I suspect that sometimes he starts typing an explanation only to realize that in climbing there are variables and not everything is always the same and rules just cannot be concrete in this realm. So yeah, that doesn't jive with his absolutist superiority syndrome (ASS) so we don't hear about it.

Remember, you're either Healyje or you're wrong.

Get off my lawn!!!

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: Healyje's entire schtick is a pompous "I'm better than you attitude" coupled with "Kids these days". He doesn't and won't expand beyond that. I suspect that sometimes he starts typing an explanation only to realize that in climbing there are variables and not everything is always the same and rules just cannot be concrete in this realm. So yeah, that doesn't jive with his absolutist superiority syndrome (ASS) so we don't hear about it. Remember, you're either Healyje or you're wrong. Get off my lawn!!!

while he can be closed minded at times, he also has quite a few posts with invaluable info to his name. plus, he probably climbs harder, scarier shit than you, despite the age

eli poss wrote: while he can be closed minded at times, he also has quite a few posts with invaluable info to his name. plus, he probably climbs harder than you, despite the age

I'm aware. I've known him since RC.com's glory days. He's always been close minded and never been one to justify his idiosyncracies. Unless you count the "5.13 X topropes" he did before 5.13 existed, no he doesn't really climb that hard. He's solid through 11 and that's not bad, especially for a guy with an AARP card.

eli poss wrote: he probably climbs harder, scarier shit than you, despite the age

I don't know Healey's stats, but HAFE is no slouch either. Not that that really matters.

And a lot of us have received those cards in the mail...

eli poss wrote: while he can be closed minded at times, he also has quite a few posts with invaluable info to his name. plus, he probably climbs harder, scarier shit than you, despite the age

I know, we're constantly reminded of the rad 5.11x onsight solo FA's that never see second ascents..

csproul wrote: I know, we're constantly reminded of the rad 5.11x onsight solo FA's that never see second ascents..

Don't forget the ballnuts and custom cut screamers.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: Healyje's entire schtick is a pompous "I'm better than you attitude" coupled with "Kids these days". He doesn't and won't expand beyond that. I suspect that sometimes he starts typing an explanation only to realize that in climbing there are variables and not everything is always the same and rules just cannot be concrete in this realm. So yeah, that doesn't jive with his absolutist superiority syndrome (ASS) so we don't hear about it. Remember, you're either Healyje or you're wrong. Get off my lawn!!!

Clueless. What I write is based on forty-one years of trad climbing and a thorough understanding of the gear and skills necessary to avoid injury and death. I only speak to my level of experience when someone attempts to label me a has-been or never-has-been - it has nothing whatsoever to do with "I'm better than you." But keep questioning my the relevance of my experience and abilities then, regardless of my age, my response is basically going to be come lead my recent FAs if you can - they're only old man .10s and .11s after all.

And "kids these days" is also wholly irrelevant; what does matter is a demographic which has exploded over the past thirty years and has done so bringing new climbers up through gyms where they don't get more than a fraction of the experience necessary to operate safely on real rock.

There are no new 'variables' in climbing and nothing has changed about the fundamentals other than the gear is far better today. And whether you like to hear it or not there are disturbing trends which are a direct result of those demographics combined with the portrayal of climbing as just another risk-free entertainment option and social activity. Further, the demographic has far outstripped the ability of experienced people to mentor folks new to the sport. It's akin to bringing on a new generation of pilots without enough flight schools and instructors and that gap is driving tons of bad practices and accidents.

The above is bad enough, but coupled the new social nature of climbing, the number one cause of accidents from my perspective - and the heart of many of my 'rants' - is distraction and inattention. One such rant is cautioning against any practice or device use which, while technically ok in competent hands, still unavoidably tends to breed yet more distraction and inattention. Additionally, distraction and inattention aren't limited to climbing these days and over the same thirty years our lives have become increasingly complex and demanding which only compounds the likelihood of it affecting one's climbing.

Another is cautioning against over-reliance on cams and a failure to learn appropriate passive skills. It's ass-backwards and rooted in a mistaken perception little different from the mass [mis]perception that grigris are [infallible] autolocking devices.

Bottom line is gravity is an absolute and - despite 'modern' cultural perceptions to the contrary - climbing is supremely unforgiving without regard for the who / what / why / when / how of a mistake. And so when it comes to climbing I don't mince words, placate delicate sensibilities, or suffer fools and that continues to keep me alive - so feel free to dismiss my comments, opinions and advice as you will - it frankly isn't my loss.

Healyje wrote: Bottom line is gravity is an absolute and - despite 'modern' cultural perceptions to the contrary - climbing is supremely unforgiving without regard for the who / what / why / when / how of a mistake. And so when it comes to climbing I don't mince words, placate delicate sensibilities, or suffer fools and that continues to keep me alive - so feel free to dismiss my comments, opinions and advice as you will - it frankly isn't my loss.

Well said. You're pretty cool and I think more people should be like you.

This has been the picture I have been looking for. And it came up on my feed again.

mountainproject.com/v/10581…

David A wrote:In the little "instruction" booklet that comes with all new BD C4's, it says that it's fine to place the cam passively. The little illustration they give shows the cam, un-retracted, resting/chocked between two edges. I've never placed a cam like this, but it just seems sketch. Has anyone done this?

I prefer good passive placements where I can find them but I can certainly think of cases where a Camalot placed in passive mode is an excellent choice. The upper crux of Air Show at Moores Wall has a pocket that opens in the back. A tri-cam will work there but a .75 Camalot in passive mode is just as good.