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Non-Climbing Day Exercise

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
20 kN wrote: Ha, yea, I thought that until I started swimming in the Navy. I recall a rescue swimmer orientation course in which I jumped into the water in full uniform wearing a freefall harness with steel buckles. That harness will drag you to the bottom in a second if you dont swim to the surface really quick and stay chill and efficient. Also, I recall training for a Naval aircrewman orientation scenario in which trainees have to swim a distance scenario in coveralls, boots, comms gear and a helmet. Swimming with all that gear on totally sucks. Some of the Marines and SOF guys even step up the game from there. They will jump in with full uniform (with boots), class IV armor, a Kevlar helmet, sidearm and an M16.
I wouldn't call that swimming. I'd call that Not Drowning! 8-(
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
20 kN wrote:CrossFit It will make you a believer.
I've believed in strong sexy women for decades!

I guess I was ahead of my time.
WoodyW · · Alaska · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 70
John Byrnes wrote: I've believed in strong sexy women for decades! I guess I was ahead of my time.
As a long time CrossFitter, It was petty much near impossible to do a workout with dozens of smoking hot, strong girls, sweating and strutting around in their yoga pants or booty shorts and not trip over my jaw . Hot damn!
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
ColinW wrote: As a long time CrossFitter, It was petty much near impossible to do a workout with dozens of smoking hot, strong girls, sweating and strutting around in their yoga pants or booty shorts and not trip over my jaw . Hot damn!
Amen



Joe Coover · · Sheridan, WY · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 20
John Byrnes wrote: Total nonsense. Of course competitive swimmers get overuse injuries! Doing ANYTHING to excess will injure you, even typing, mousing and being a couch potato. It's almost impossible to hurt yourself swimming, even if you have horrible form. There's no impact, no minimum level of effort, no minimum strength required, no minimum ROM required. Compare that to hang boarding, weight lifting, running or just about any other activity. PERHAPS, if you were a shitty swimmer and swam as hard as you could, for as long as you could, every day, you MIGHT hurt your shoulders. But you'd probably just drown.
You must read up on swimming and poor form sir. If you are tired, your form goes down hill in any activity. Therefore, you don't need to be a competitive swimmer to have the overuse injury; because you already fatigue the same muscles on a hard climbing day. Look at the muscle groups used and not used on a swimmer. Lean body, large back and biceps. Remind you of another sport? Maybe climbing?

I am not saying it is wrong for everyone, but swimming will make it more likely that you end of with the same overuse injuries that occur with climbing. Check the link below for a thorough review of swimming injuries.

  • **To credit you, these are all based off of injuries from competitive swimmers, so more causal swimmers may experience different problems.

-Joe

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435931/
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Joe Coover wrote: You must read up on swimming and poor form sir. If you are tired, your form goes down hill in any activity. Therefore, you don't need to be a competitive swimmer to have the overuse injury; because you already fatigue the same muscles on a hard climbing day. Look at the muscle groups used and not used on a swimmer. Lean body, large back and biceps. Remind you of another sport? Maybe climbing? I am not saying it is wrong for everyone, but swimming will make it more likely that you end of with the same overuse injuries that occur with climbing. Check the link below for a thorough review of swimming injuries. ***To credit you, these are all based off of injuries from competitive swimmers, so more causal swimmers may experience different problems. -Joe ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl…
Yes, overuse is a problem. I'm not advocating overuse.

I recommended, at most, 1200m/week.

A high school swim team will practice 5 days a week and go 25,000m: twenty times more than what I'm recommending.

In the article you provided the data came from College and Olympic level swimmers, who were going 9 miles/day, about 14Km, or 72,589m in a 5-day-week; an increase of 60 times over what I recommend.

Your contention is nonsense. It's like saying that because some people overeat and get fat, that eating isn't good for you. Duh.
Joe Coover · · Sheridan, WY · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 20
John Byrnes wrote: Yes, overuse is a problem. I'm not advocating overuse. I recommended, at most, 1200m/week. A high school swim team will practice 5 days a week and go 25,000m: twenty times more than what I'm recommending. In the article you provided the data came from College and Olympic level swimmers, who were going 9 miles/day, about 14Km, or 72,589m in a 5-day-week; an increase of 60 times over what I recommend. Your contention is nonsense. It's like saying that because some people overeat and get fat, that eating isn't good for you. Duh.
There are many examples of casual users of sports that end up with overuse injuries doing other non professional sports or activities on off days. Especially with less than professional "causal" athletes. For example:

A person who plays a lot of tennis casually has no wrist issues. They start college, and end up typing a lot. The combination of the two causes carpal tunnel.

A golfer has a log cabin and winter is coming and decides to chop wood to use for the winter and develops golfers elbow.

A climber starts a home improvement project and develops tennis elbow.

How is it a far stretch that if swimming can cause rotator cuff injuries, and rock climbers are prone to rotator cuff injuries, that the combination of the two may make climbers more prone to rotator cuff injuries?
Kevin Stricker · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 1,197

I thought I would add an additional point of view here. John, swimming is a sport that uses primarily the same muscles as the climbing. How then can this be considered a "cross training" activity? While I am glad to hear that swimming is working out for you I can say that for myself, swimming is not a good in season "non-climbing day exercise". I swam quite a bit in high school and college and was on my high school swim team. As a climber I can tell you that even with good technique it is easy to overdo it even on a moderate schedule. While I have a hard time going for a casual swim because of my BMI, I have often had rotator cuff tweaks when adding swimming to my schedule even when doing 500-1000m workouts. It's honestly a bummer because I love swimming. The problem is that a proper freestyle S stroke is taxing to the rotator cuff and very similar to some climbing moves. That said, swimming is an excellent off season exercise, as long as you are aware of the risk of overtraining.

To the OP, I would recommend checking out the ClimbStrong website, specifically the strength training for climbing articles. My personal opinion is that many climbers choose to overdo the cardio component of their training. A focus on strength and mobility is going to pay greater dividends both in your climbing performance and your long term health.

Climb On.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Kevin Stricker wrote: John, swimming is a sport that uses primarily the same muscles as the climbing.
I dont really agree with that. The primary groups used in climbing are your fingers and forearms. In swimming, my fingers see very little load compared to climbing, and most of the torque generated in the arms is via the shoulders as rotational torque. I used to swim all the time, and not once did I ever get pumped arms, but I felt it in my shoulders quite often. Last, in swimming you also generate a lot of force from your upper legs and hips, which while also used in climbing, it's not a group that is really taxed that much in climbing except from a flexibility standpoint if you're stemming or heal hooking. You're probably going to tax your hips and upper legs more on the approach than on the route.
Joe Coover · · Sheridan, WY · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 20
20 kN wrote: I dont really agree with that. The primary groups used in climbing are your fingers and forearms.
Are you trying to say climbers don't use their backs, rear shoulders, and biceps? Please enlighten me.

I think you may be confusing the limiting factor on a climb versus the muscle groups used.
Kevin Stricker · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 1,197

Good point on the fingers, but I do feel that the legs in both swimming and climbing play a secondary role. Compare your 50m speed on a flutter kick and your pull. Mine is at least twice as fast(but I do have really skinny legs).

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
20 kN wrote: I dont really agree with that. The primary groups used in climbing are your fingers and forearms.
If shoulders are so irrelevant to climbing, then how come so many folks are getting surgery on theirs?
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Kevin Stricker wrote:I do feel that the legs in both swimming and climbing play a secondary role. Compare your 50m speed on a flutter kick and your pull. Mine is at least twice as fast(but I do have really skinny legs).
I'm a really lousy swimmer but I imagine swimming uses a lot of legs. I mean, you do keep yourself afloat with legs. There is no way I can swim faster using just my arms, even if I had a flotation device.

Regardless, whether swimming is a good non-climbing day exercise (I tend to think it's horrible), it presents a lot of logistic issues for a lot of people, especially in the desert regions. I'd much rather practice martial arts forms, but even that depends on how worn out my core/legs are from climbing/approaching.
Ned Plimpton · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 116

Ashtanga.

VanessaK · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 0

Yoga, pilates, swimming, old school aerobics workouts...I like to mix it up.

Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061

Prehab:
Wall angels, external rotations w/bands, band pull aparts, prone-Ys, pronators with a one-sided dumbbell, rice bucket series, foam rolling, yoga

Posterior chain:
Deadlifts, kettlebell swings, reverse hypers, hip thrusters (not to be confused with the x-fit cult's "thrusters" which are just the jerk of clean and jerk), back extension machine

Anterior core:
leg lifts, gravity boot situps, wood chops w/plate, crunch machine, plank rollouts on a swissball, wild monkey sex.

Combos and other: pistol squats, goblet squat/KB swing supersets, front squats, KB snatches, hip adductor machine (to combat all the turnout in climbing and sitting at a desk), road biking, mtn biking,

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Kevin Stricker wrote:I thought I would add an additional point of view here. John, swimming is a sport that uses primarily the same muscles as the climbing. How then can this be considered a "cross training" activity? While I am glad to hear that swimming is working out for you I can say that for myself, swimming is not a good in season "non-climbing day exercise". I swam quite a bit in high school and college and was on my high school swim team. As a climber I can tell you that even with good technique it is easy to overdo it even on a moderate schedule. While I have a hard time going for a casual swim because of my BMI, I have often had rotator cuff tweaks when adding swimming to my schedule even when doing 500-1000m workouts. It's honestly a bummer because I love swimming. The problem is that a proper freestyle S stroke is taxing to the rotator cuff and very similar to some climbing moves. That said, swimming is an excellent off season exercise, as long as you are aware of the risk of overtraining.
Hi Kevin, long time no see.

I don't recommend swimming as "cross training". I recommend it as active recovery, injury prevention/rehabilitation and maintaining/increasing ROM.

Active recovery means you use your climbing muscles in a gentle, aerobic manner for a relatively brief period. If it's "taxing" as you say, then you're pulling too hard or going too far.

I'm a good swimmer and it sounds like you are too. My instincts are to go fast. I have to consciously back-off sometimes to stay in the recovery zone.

In years past I've tweaked my rotator cuffs a number of times. I swam to rehabilitate them with excellent results. These days I swim to prevent injuries, and it's working, by maintaining over-all rotator cuff health and full ROM.

When I look around and see all the climbers with shoulder injuries/surgeries, well.... I rest my case.
Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450

For what it's worth you may want to check out the Rock Climber's Training Manual by the Anderson brothers and the Training Beta podcast, you may find that the answers you find there are quite different from what's been posted above. Also check out Mark Twight's essay on CrossFit in the (totally awesome but possibly not applicable to you depending on your goals) Training for the New Alpinism by Johnson and House.

Monomaniac · · Morrison, CO · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 17,295
Will S wrote:Prehab: Anterior core: leg lifts, gravity boot situps, wood chops w/plate, crunch machine, plank rollouts on a swissball, wild monkey sex.
Will, could you provide some more instructions on that last one?
Russ Keane · · Salt Lake · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 392

All you have to do is strengthen your core, and you will climb well.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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