Advice to someone who had their belayer drop them (twice)

Entertaining effort, but it kind of misses the point..

It's precisely the power imbalance (physical, social, political, financial) that makes the risk of being objectified dangerous to the recipient.

Any example where there's really very little risk to the person in question is kind of pointless.

In the past and present have males ever been regarded as not being as intelligent/competent as females? No.

I would tend to disagree with this statement. Shows like Family Guy, The Simpsons, Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Everybody Loves Raymond and a bunch of other CBS-type sitcoms (names of which I don't know because I haven't watched TV regularly in a while) often portray the male main character as less than smart while his female counter part as the calm, collective voice of reason.
Maybe you weren't referencing pop-culture, but anything broadcast over mass media to millions of people will have an effect on a society/culture.

Eric Chabot wrote: you troll

I find it interesting how this thread brings out the insults. Definitely some nerves being hit.

Eric Chabot wrote:Pejorative objectification of the dominant group (males) isn't offensive.

Got it. Men are not allowed to be offended, ever, because by definition insulting men is not offensive. Perhaps we should make insulting the Dominant Group a required daily activity in primary school, to help speed our way to a society of True Equality.

Christian wrote:Entertaining effort, but it kind of misses the point.. It's precisely the power imbalance (physical, social, political, financial) that makes the risk of being objectified dangerous to the recipient. Any example where there's really very little risk to the person in question is kind of pointless.

I don't follow. What is the "risk" in the original story?

Edit: on second thought, this is Bill's thread, and he's asked for no more arguing, so...I'm out.

Go back and reread some of the posts from the women, that might enlighten you as to what they feel the risk is.

Sorry I called you a troll. Forgive the assumption, it was based on your anonymous handle, minimally filled out profile, and inflammatory rhetoric.

Eric Chabot wrote:Pejorative objectification of the dominant group (males) isn't offensive.

This is sexist too, yet non of the feminists have mentioned anything about it. What do you have to say about that?

Eric Chabot wrote:In the past and present have males ever been regarded as not being as intelligent/competent as females? No.

actually, in an episode of Futerama, they encounter a planet ruled by women where males are regarded as only being useful for "baby-making"

For those who can't tell the difference, this is thin skinned, easily offended whining.

Billcoe wrote:My advice to someone who had their belayer drop them ...twice, follows. EDITED: Shortened AND deleted per request from something I actually had seen with my own eyes, twice and damned near exact as I SAW happen to others: to the following fantasy bullshit points so as to have a worthless post that both helps and offends no one. 1) Meh. Don't learn anything from your accident and don't learn from others hard won experience, just go get dropped again. 3rd times a charm? Hip Hip. That's why we pay rescue folks after all, and they'd just be sitting around watching cartoons and eating sugar pops and Captain Crunch all morning, so getting them off their lazy asses is a benefit to them and to you. 2) Wear your helmet. Kidding. Everyone says it though so it must be true. It won't matter when your tib/fibs are up in your stomach area and your vertabrea scrunched so tight you think Mini-me is a giant (opps, my apologies to any offended "little people or vertically challenged persons"). But my point is that with modern medical thinggys, you'll be back to climbing harder than ever before. 3) Trial and error worked fine for your grandparents, so keep on (once all of the breaks heal) and don't give up. You'll probably eventually get it sorted out. Try try try again and all that shit. I mean, many before you have recovered from injuries and they continue to lead full and happy climbing lives. That might be you the 3rd, 4th and 5th time you slap dirt. It might not even happen again. Haha, and I have a bridge I'll sell you too. 4) Please try and flap your arms like wings like Wiley Coyote in the Road Runner Cartoons to maneuver, as your ass is flying though the air, so as to miss the rocks at the base. Carry on. Beep-beep

This isn't.

Em Cos wrote:Your possibly valid points about mentoring new climbers are completely overshadowed by your absolutely disgusting post. I'm too appalled to be more eloquent than this: You are super gross.

Neither is this.

eli poss wrote: If I say something that offends somebody I respond be either apologizing or telling them to grow some thicker skin, depending on the situation. .

Pejorative objectification of the dominant group (males) isn't offensive.

eli poss wrote: This is sexist too, yet non [sic] of the feminists have mentioned anything about it. What do you have to say about that?

Pejorative objectivication of men might be offensive--it might offend some individuals; it might even be prejudiced against men--but it's not "sexist." Sexism is the combination of sex/gender prejudice plus power. "Power," of course, being a thing men have and women have less of. Women are discriminated against and marginalized in our society. So for women to say "mean" things about men is NOT sexist, because women do not have the power to oppress men in our society (on the whole, individual exceptions are out there - men can be raped too, for example). Men who say "mean" things about women, on the other hand, are perpetuating the sexist status quo, and their own (collective) power.

This is a pretty easy to understand primer on the concept: everydayfeminism.com/2015/0…

I have been avoiding creating an account on this site for a couple of years now. My boyfriend has one here and it seems like all I ever see is just endless trolling, but alas, I feel as though this craziness has compelled me enough...I am a woman, 30 years old (in case anyone wonders) and I am a climber. I am in NO WAY offended by the original post, in fact, when I first read it (the unedited version) I found it amusing. I just wanted to get on here and make sure that it is clear that not ALL women are offended by this post. Also, in my experience, most of the women that I have ever had the pleasure of knowing in any real way have been the filthiest, foulest of mouth and equally as objectifying as any other person out there so....in the name of feminism I happily chuckle at the original post and reserve my right for any objectifying of the opposite sex that I am sure I will participate in in the future.

snobbit wrote:Pejorative objectification of the dominant group (males) isn't offensive. Pejorative objectivication of men might be offensive--it might offend some individuals; it might even be prejudiced against men--but it's not "sexist." Sexism is the combination of sex/gender prejudice plus power. "Power," of course, being a thing men have and women have less of. Women are discriminated against and marginalized in our society. So for women to say "mean" things about men is NOT sexist, because women do not have the power to oppress men in our society (on the whole, individual exceptions are out there - men can be raped too, for example). Men who say "mean" things about women, on the other hand, are perpetuating the sexist status quo, and their own (collective) power. This is a pretty easy to understand primer on the concept: everydayfeminism.com/2015/0…

(The hell is a “snobbit,” anyways?!?)

Sooooo…it seems background credentials are required BEFORE someone will take the merits of your argument seriously here. Fine.

Me: Decidedly male. Born in Texas. Raised in Georgia. Drive trucks/push heavy equipment for a living. Still listen to Slayer; still cruise around in an ol’ pickup. Still frustrated I’m too fat to send .13. Let’s see, I’m about as cracker white, middle class as they come. AND, most importantly (apparently) it’s prolly safe to say that these days I’m (reluctantly) knocking on the door of middle age. No longer young by any stretch of the imagination—unless your imagination includes heroic doses of hallucinogenics.

With that outta the way, I think Billcoe’s original post made him sound highly ignorant, disgustingly misogynistic, completely sexist, and like a tool beyond compare. Never mind that his writing was grammatically bankrupt and that the only value of his “climbing” advice amounted to a first-aid device for AMGA guides to induce vomiting—his post really made him sound like a shit. Now, I won’t say those things ABOUT HIM directly. I don’t know the man; I can’t and won’t say about the man. I make every reasonable attempt to TRY to reserve judgment for actions, not idiotic words. Still, his words did make him sound like a douche of the highest order.

But I do have one action to judge him by: He tucked tail and hid his original post after feeling the fury of MP pushback. Not even the courage of your own conviction, eh? (Special thanks to BillS for rescuing that dog!)

In my book, where I grew up, that makes you a coward, Billcoe. (Or do we say he did right by his own wrong, taking down his original bullshitery? My bad, then.)

Either way, I say plant your flag and defend that hill. Or else admit your mistake and apologize.

AAAAAAAHHHHHhhhh rattttttttssssss…stole my thunder. You DID apologize, didn’t you, Billcoe. Kind of. (Not really.) So OK. I give you some points back for coming clean. Sort of. (But not really—more of an I'm-sorry-you-were-offended apology, wasn't it?) Good on you for that, at least.

But you still seem shockingly ignorant of WHY your words touched off a firestorm. (Hint: Has NOTHING to do with the veracity of the story you gave. Like FedEx, man: It’s aaaaall in the delivery.)

So be it. At least now you stand marginally better than the legion of idiocy who rushed blindly to your defense. And I suppose I should thank you for giving me some prime fodder for a list of the “Douchey-est Posts of the Year” I’m compiling. (Fun to come this Christmas!)

Thanks, I guess. And good luck with that attitude. It’s 2015, man.

~R. Kelly Liggin

In response to all the heated response…

Lot’s of folks here willing to die on Billcoe’s sword of idiocy. All right. Wrong side of history and everything, if that’s how you wanna play it.

Unfortunately, MOST of the arguments in his defense are about as juvenile as the OP. Most people are just trying to score cheap points by lobbing ad hominem attacks and bullying the rest. The only reasonable response is a distracted yawn and maybe a pee.

But here’s some thoughts (my thoughts) on some of what’s been said:

It’s been suggested that Billcoe’s detractors are upset because they’re overly sensitive and feel inappropriately offended by his comments.

Wrong. This isn’t about sensitivity. This isn’t about anyone’s hurt feelings. (Notice, however, that tired ol’ tactic of calling a woman out—Em Cos—for being too emotional, implying that the strength and the cogency of her argument is diluted because, as a woman, she’s too easily affected. Perhaps we should ask her if she’s currently menstruating?)

This is likely an effective straw man argument to make. To suggest that too many of today’s generation (a claim that turned out unsubstantiated) is just too damn sensitive. People will buy into that shit precisely because it sounds bumper-sticker simplistic and proudly dismissive.

Only…it misses entirely the point: There is a sharp distinction between offense and oppression. Misogyny and sexism are broad, pervasive (and at times, largely invisible) social maladies, not personal affronts. Who gives a fuck if Em Cos or any one individual is personally insulted? If folks came on here and (satire or not!) started dropping N-bombs and suggesting (even in jest) that only brown people should belay because, well, that’s what they do—then we certainly wouldn’t stand idly by for that, either. Why? Because reasonable, civil folk recognize the difference between words that offend and attitudes that oppress. That Billcoe’s OP perpetuated a culture of easy sexism doesn’t just offend, it wrongs us all (even and especially women who don't know how to recognize it) on the level of civil liberty and basic human freedom. Reasonable, civil folk will of course stand against that.

The claim has also been made that detractors can be ignored because they’re bowing to political correctness.

Same shit, different ideas. This is more category error. Shifting (hijacking?) the argument seemingly makes it easy to just sweep everyone else off the board. Game over.

Only…this too misses the point. On purpose. People are calling Billcoe out not because they want a cookie, but because they recognize that his Neanderthalic attitude demeans and objectifies women, an attitude that should have become extinct, say, along with the Neanderthals.

That, in fact, this isn’t the time or place for this nonsense. Let CNN tackle this.

Are you fucking kidding me. Why would we wait or even want a bunch of wonks on national television to weigh in on OUR thing? This is OUR community. This is OUR problem to suss out and perhaps to solve. And this is OUR forum. Who else but us should police our own? I patently reject the idea that MP people would or should remain silent about corrosive issues staining OUR tribe.

In fact, I say this is exactly, 100%, the place and time to have this discussion. Join the fun if’n you like. (Thanks again to Billcoe for brining it up!) And as for Em Cos (or anyone else willing to stand up and defend marginalized groups), I will hear her voice. Here, in this forum, and now, at this time. I will entertain her arguments—everyone’s arguments, here and now. And by my own council will I reject or accept what people have to say. I will do this here, and I will do this now.

Not by the way, I ALSO say that publicly shaming those who we find to be so obviously and obliviously wrong is itself exactly, 100% the correct response. Billcoe chose to spread his idiocy on a public forum, here and now, accessible to all peoples of all genders and all ages. Let him take the heat, then, of exactly all that public. Here in this place, and now, at this time.

Finally, that the OP wasn’t really all that sexist or misogynist.

OhMyLanta, pul-eeze. Where to begin? Let’s just take one example, let’s just single out that one word: Hottie. Only…it wasn’t just that one word in isolation, was it? Diction alone doesn’t do it. It was context, it was tone, it was attitude—as others have pointed out.

Hell, I’ve called my aunt a “hottie.” That doesn’t make me an asshole. But Billcoe’s basic, blind, blanket portrayal of women qua women vacates the very thing that makes them human women. A close reading of his own words (or those of his buddy once-removed) suggests that he (they?) values women only as far as their utility allows. Their utility not as a person, not as a belayer, not as a fellow climber—but as a thing desired. Presumably, were this woman dumpy, toothless, and bald, her climbing/belaying prowess wouldn’t even matter. (Unless Billcoe’s into that kinda thing?)

Which. Is. Exactly. The point.

Look, it ain’t obvious, hard sexism—I’ll give you that. No one is being raped or under paid or what here. But if’n you can’t or simply won’t allow even the possibility that this is the same locker room, frat house, good ol’ boy approach to patriarchy, then you’re not just part of the problem, you are the problem. If you can’t or simply won’t recognize this as the same attitude that ultimately leads to and incubates a culture where it’s OK to violate (or let be violated) and silence (or let be silenced) and in nearly every way devalue (or let be devalued) people just because they come standard with a vagina…well? Then that argument is likely always going to be lost on you. You and the rest of the primitives.

Don’t let the door of social evolution hit you on the way out.

~R. Kelly Liggin

R Kelly, how can you propose to have a conversation about a topic under the guise of being enlightened then proceed to insult anyone that may disagree with you?

The only part of this thread I enjoyed reading was ubu's comments regarding Words equal power only if you let it be so.

Speaking from experience:

Arguing in threads like this you will get no satisfaction, and you can be 99% certain no ones mind will be changed.

I'd wager the main outcome of this thread is the average opinion we have of each other will have dropped a little bit.

And lastly, be weary of those with strong convictions who think they're better than you.

To the OP Billcoe:

This thread you've spawned reminded me of a talk I once heard, discussing the erosion of their 'safe spaces' that some males are experiencing in the modern world.

TR Hero, you should edit/ remove your first post because it makes you look like an ignorant martyr the way you bashed the shit out of bill to no end. The glaring fact you overlooked was that he was asked to edit/ remove his post Your argument is less compelling by the fact that you weakened your character's image by ridiculing him to the extent you did. Also we have such staunchly different viewpoints I realize there is no point for me to respond to your arguments and I wouldn't know where to begin.

r m wrote:Arguing in threads like this you will get no satisfaction, and you can be 99% certain no ones mind will be changed.

I actually wanted to share an experience I had, as I often do have revelations. I saw nothing wrong with Billcoe's original post, although I did think it was a little queer. I saw nothing wrong with the first thing em cos wrote. I (knowing I shouldn't have) spoke up only when this turned into a "look how males are pigs and they're always offending us" thread. I did so because I firmly believed that I am not a pig, I have respect for women, and the OP while being crude as hell shouldn't be written off as such either. Anyway all this is mumbo-jumbo, here's what I wanted to share.

When BillS requoted the original post, I scanned through it. In my head I was saying "Where is he being demeaning to women and objectifying them?" And I got through a paragraph or two "nope not here" "nope" and then I got to the condoms part and I thought "holy shit, there it is, that's fucked up". So then I finished reading the post trying to figure out where else it might be, and trying to recompose my thoughts. Then I figured I owed the community an apologize since I apparently had mis-seen what others saw. Now here is my point. When I then re-read it again and tried to find the part which I found offensive. I couldn't find it. I read over the condoms part 5 times in a row and couldn't see what I saw seconds earlier.

So what I am trying to say from this, is not, "that women are looking for offensive comments from men", but rather I am saying that in two different mindsets, I was able to see or not see the offensive nature of it.

So anyone can keep badgering on about how I'm a misogynist. But I'd like women to understand that while they are fighting their battle against oppression or such, that there is also the other side of it which is that men are saying or doing things, with no intent to harm, offend, oppress, etc... and their actions are being misinterpreted (heck their actions are being attacked). Now I dare to ask this. If a man does something and a woman perceives it as wrong, is it wrong? If it is wouldn't that be a feminine dominated mindset? That men's actions should be subservient to the approval of women?

I'd also like to say that I was offended by whoever wrote earlier that I wanted to silence women, or that men want to silence women, that really bothered me. I think it was unfounded and a cheap shot and it painted me/ men in a bad light. I'm also saddened by the fact that em cos hasn't replied again because I am in fear that she may share that sentiment, that her opinion doesn't matter, or that it should be silenced.

Criticize as you like, just trying to be honest and open.

Edit:
And I think I flew off the handle, I've just seen this public-shaming thing go on so much lately, I think I took all that pent up frustration from those events and applied it to something I so quickly wrote off as an invalid. I can understand how others can be offended by that post, I still don't personally find what he said to be offensive to women, and I would appreciate anyone who can see that while they take offense to it, they could understand that it was not Billcoe's intention or necessarily his operating model of being oppressive to women. It was him speaking in a particular way, an exaggerated way, to draw attention to what he felt was a concerning issue.

"Studmuffin's Warm Package"

THAT is totally the name of my new punk rock band!

mediocre wrote:R Kelly, how can you propose to have a conversation about a topic under the guise of being enlightened then proceed to insult anyone that may disagree with you?

Hhhmmmmm....rats. You see how I did there? I tried to do the one thing...but then ended up taking it the other way.

I am (sometimes) SUCH the douche...

Dan Austin wrote: and furthermore, why don't we have a WHITE history month?!???!?!

Hahahahaaaa...we do! It's called, "the calendar."