Advice to someone who had their belayer drop them (twice)

I never said "hottie" was the offensive/objectifying part of the OP. That should be fairly obvious, but I'm sorry if I can't write an encyclopedia that responds in advance to every possible and willful misinterpretation of what I write. In fact, I've probably used that word myself on MP.

But it also depends on the context, at a bar where it's assumed the people involved are fairly comfortable with one another socially, I doubt the women would be made uncomfortable by it. In other contexts, even that might be inappropriate.

Christian wrote: If a mixed gender group went out for drinks after work and one of the men said: " Look at that hottie at the bar in a miniskirt, I want to run my hands all up inside her warm panties." (and part of that is pretty much verbatim from the OP)...

Ok, but that quote is given in a context completely divorced from the original post! Fox News would be proud.

Christian wrote: You don't think that would be creating a hostile environment for the women in the group? An environment that tends to diminish the power of the women in it just by the fact that they're women and the fact that the men in it don't want to relinquish any power whatsoever?

Uh oh. Trigger words! Check your white make privilege!

Words equal power only if you let it be so. It's like I used to tell my son when his brother pulled his strings: "Why do you let him control you like that?".

Dan Austin wrote: and furthermore, why don't we have a WHITE history month?!???!?!

That's racist. I'm offended.

"Words equal power only if you let it be so"

That's one of the most naïve things I have ever read.

I'd go into more detail, but on second thought that would be pointless.

Glad to see I got everyone fired up:

Lindsay, string together my paragraphs and relate the notion of speech elements to the mosque analogy. I am by no way implying women should GTFO of the forums. But I am saying they will respond differently to terminologies than a male. More noticeably when those terminologies have been exaggerated for satirical value.

Marc, you're weak, your exactly what I'm arguing against, its actually unbelievable how ironic your posting is. You by no way paid any attention to what I said or the point I am trying to make. You know nothing about me. Rather you labeled me and merely did it through collateral associations to try to injure my character, and completely overlooked that what I'm arguing is free speech and freedom from censorship of opinions in the name of political correctness.

Christian, not making unilateral decisions, but I am showing up to the board meeting. Your analogy, and further eli/ubu's debate of it really had me thinking. In my perception bill was describing a scenario where he was taking a date (to whatever varying extent he knew this date) and therefor not raping this girl. That being said, and being of the non-raping male demographic, I perceived this to be sexual flirting, whatever you want to call it. The scenario you described in the bar I think is very different. When you first described it I imagined co-workers and thought to myself "wow that would be fucked up" but then when you later revisited it, I imagined friends and thought "that's a completely different environment".

Still trying to figure out what I think. I mean if Emily's argument is that hearing a man speak of a female's attractiveness with a more crude word than she's used to hearing, while simultaneously describing a slightly sexual encounter, that that scenario is oppressive to women at large, than I'd say no. But if it's to argue that cat-calling and unwarranted sexual advances are intimidating and that something in society is warranting this male behavior, than I would say yes that's totally fucked up.

I really don't think the latter example is what was going on here, and I'm sorry that there is confusion. But I beg anyone to please describe better.

I can already anticipate that this is going to roll into all sorts of other arguable topics. Is male/female sexual desire acceptable? Are we allowed to speak of it? What do you guys think of BDSM? Can she spank me, but not I her?

A month or two ago I had a girl in a climbing gym tell me she likes anything slung and hung... should I be offended, intimidated, and oppressed? Was this unacceptable behavior in a society? Have I oppressed you by re-telling? I'm not up to date on all this and I'm surely going to mess up my valid points by badgering on...

Christian wrote:"Words equal power only if you let it be so" That's one of the most naïve things I have ever read.

In that case you should consider reading more...

Christian wrote: I'd go into more detail, but on second thought that would be pointless.

It sounds like you're one of those people who likes to frame all human interaction in terms of a struggle for power and dominance. Personally I think this is a form of projection, and those who espouse this view are saying more about their own mental framework than the subject under discussion.

I'll say it again: words only have the power the listener decides to award them. Sticks and stones, baby. You can gain zero power over me with words. Null, nil, nada, zilch, the big goose egg. Naive? Well, if you'd like, feel free to give it a shot and we can find out, if that's what floats your boat.

Jake Jones wrote:So, if someone walks up to your mother and calls her the "C" word to her face, you're just going to let it roll off you?

Hmmm...so what are you going to do when this happens? Punch the guy? Or just tell them to eff off and go about your business? I really hope the latter. But of course that's up to you, see below.

Jake Jones wrote:I call bullshit. Words matter. If they didn't, we wouldn't have volumes of manuscripts that evoke emotion.

Yes words matter. How much they matter is up to you. You, the listener, get to decide. Words only have the power that we, as listeners, are willing to give them.

Tom Sherman wrote: But if it's to argue that cat-calling and unwarranted sexual advances are intimidating and that something in society is warranting this male behavior, than I would say yes that's totally fucked up.

Absolutely. To be clear, I'm fairly sure this is something we can all agree on.

The OP was just an example of what happens when you try to write satire but you have a shitty sense of humor and writing ability -- winds up exposing much more about the OP than about the subject of the supposed satire.

My previous troll post alluded to it, but I actually think that cat-calling is a great analog. On paper, a cat-call is just a compliment, but in context it's a gross, delinquent type of harassment, even if the cat-caller sincerely believes he's paying a compliment to the recipient. The thing lacking from the cat-caller's style of compliment and the OP's style of satire, which makes both offensive, is a lack of taste and empathy. There was nothing in the OP that signaled "Ah, this guy gets it and is just holding up a mirror to the overly-sexual macho man climber!" so defending it as a satire just really seems like a cop out.

I agree that the trend towards valuing aversion from discomfort/offense above all else is a bad thing (here's a good article about it theatlantic.com/magazine/ar…). But this doesn't mean that any time anyone gets offended that they're being too sensitive.

Thinking that people can just grow thicker skin and laugh everything off is a pretty naive and narrow opinion. It's great advice if the subject at hand is something relatively trivial, but -- and I'm just going to go out on a limb here since I'm not speaking from personal experience -- I'd bet that at least about 50% of the population would say that gender/sex-based discrimination is not trivial.

So, ubu, let's say you own a company.

You figure out that a competitor is going around badmouthing your products.
They're smart and say factual things in a way that could be argued is just opinion.

You've decided you're not gonna let words hurt you, so you're gonna sue their ass and make it stop. The only problem is, they're a huge company and they're gonna bury your ass w the legal fees alone long before the case is close to being decided. No attorney will even consider taking your case unless you give them 50k upfront.. and you don't have it.

If your sales start dropping, have their words hurt you or not? I guess you could say you're not offended by your bottom line being obliterated..Well, good for you then, you're not offended but your ass is still broke.

Substitute the above situation for one in which a woman is trying to rise in the corporate world, scientific world, or even just be taken seriously as a potential climbing partner. "She's a hottie, she can't possibly belay or climb well." "She slept her way to that position!" "Women are not good scientists!"

Etc, etc..don't be naïve enough to think those kind of "words" can never cause damage.

Like I said, it's a spectrum, there are situations where people overreact when a woman's attractiveness is being used in a satirical but respectful way. Or a woman is politely hit on in a social situation and there's an overreaction, etc..

This wasn't one of them, not by a long shot. Besides the overly detailed sexual description, the whole subtext of the post was that attractive women cannot quickly be taught to belay well, that they need to be talked to like children and be given twice the amount of instruction that any other type of person would.

Jake Jones wrote: I think we're saying kind of the same thing. No, I'm probably not going to punch the person. But it would infuriate me. I have no control over my emotional reaction to some guy calling my mother the C word. I do, however, have control of whether or not I assault the guy. I can choose not to. It doesn't mean that his offensive behavior doesn't bother me. That's all I'm saying. So, in essence, saying "why do you let it bother you?" is bullshit IMO.

But you *do* have that control! You don't have to be a Shaolin monk to be able to rein in your emotional response to simple words. They are, in fact, just words. Why would you let another person take control of you in such a trivial manner? Why indeed would you let it bother you?

I'm not saying it's always easy, but if you let yourself lose control over nothing more than a bunch of words you ultimately have nobody but yourself to blame.

Not that I'm saying any of this is related to this thread, which is really about the fine lines between being funny, being inappropriate, and being offensive in a heterogeneous community like MP. On that topic, I would just urge everyone to err on the side of assuming humor over something darker, and think twice before crying "misogyny" or "racism" or any other ism that happens to be the flavor of the day. Otherwise we'll either all be in a state of perpetual pissed-off-ness, or the forums will become a wasteland of homogeneous Proper Thought.

Christian wrote:So, ubu, let's say you own a company. You figure out that a competitor is going around badmouthing your products.

Stop right there. That isn't "just words", that's libel. If you don't understand the difference...well, you know the rest.

They may only be words, and you may be in control of your emotional response to words. But some words are worth a negative emotional response. It's ok to allow yourself to be angered by some words.

Christian wrote:"She's a hottie, she can't possibly belay or climb well." "She slept her way to that position!" "Women are not good scientists!"

Most people who are saying things such as these are in a lower position in the social hierarchy so the hypothetical women shouldn't care about their remarks. They should be able to tell that the critics are fueled by jealousy and therefore dismiss their importance. I learned to pick and choose who's words to give value to when I was 17. If you're in your adulthood and still haven't figured this out, I really feel sorry for you because you're inflicting so much emotional pain on yourself.

Christian wrote:the whole subtext of the post was that attractive women cannot quickly be taught to belay well, that they need to be talked to like children and be given twice the amount of instruction that any other type of person would.

I can't speak for the original post, because I didn't get the chance to read it, but, from what I read, this was not the intended meaning. what he describes is about the amount of instruction the average person would require, in my experience. We perceive belaying to be an easy task because it requires little thought and is mostly muscle memory.

developing this muscle memory, however, can be very difficult because it involves many motions to be preformed simultaneously that most people don't do on a regular basis. as I have only been climbing for 2 years, I can still remember how hard it was to develop the muscle memory. it took a lot of mental energy and practice to develop.

Tom Sherman wrote:Still trying to figure out what I think. But if it's to argue that cat-calling and unwarranted sexual advances are intimidating and that something in society is warranting this male behavior, than I would say yes that's totally fucked up. I really don't think the latter example is what was going on here

This is EXACTLY what is going on here. The original post was sexually intimidating, not because it made funny sex jokes, but because it treated the female student like an object. Just a "thing." A dumb, ignorant creature. She's not a human, she's a hole.

You might not have picked up on that, reading the original post. You are a dude so you do not walk down the street or go out on a date (or go climbing with an MPer for the first time!) feeling like you could be potential prey. But that is a day-to-day reality for women. That's our context. And the original post just screamed RAPE CULTURE.

rantpolitical.com/2015/06/1…

eli poss wrote: Most people who are saying things such as these are in a lower position in the social hierarchy

It's exactly the opposite, a lot of people that say or imply these kinds of things are actually higher in the hierarchy. Nobel Prize winning scientists, billionaires, the people who run the big companies, advertising agencies, studios, etc..

The people in power are trying to preserve that power, and they wouldn't even bother with this kind of stuff if it wasn't effective..

And that's not to mention how it is in the rest of the world, the US is a paradise for women's/minority rights compared to some countries I've lived in..

Jake Jones wrote: Agree to disagree. I don't have that control. I barely have the aforementioned control not to act on my urges. To some, that discipline is that of a Shaolin monk. But I see the other side too. It takes quite a bit to offend me, and there has to be a perceived intention of offense most of the time. I'm ok with my level of control, and also my threshold for things that offend me.

I wonder. There is a difference between having control, and deciding not to exercise it, no? People who lack this control, and aren't able to modulate their response to the words or opinions of others, are somewhat broken. Take it to the extreme and you end up with the asshats who decided to assault the Charlie Hebdo office. For my part, I'll err on the side of trying to be offended by nothing than to be offended by everything.

csproul wrote:They may only be words, and you may be in control of your emotional response to words. But some words are worth a negative emotional response. It's ok to allow yourself to be angered by some words.

If you're bringing this up in the context of Donald Trump bloviating, then I agree wholeheartedly.

I have my own story to tell, and this seems as good a place as any for the telling. Any similarity to, or perhaps direct plagiarism of, a prior in this thread is entirely maybe not unintentional.

Now, this really happened to a woman I know who got dropped at the local cliff by a hot studmuffin, it's not hypothetical. If you're a woman, you'll know what I'm talking about: You find out that he's been climbing for weeks...at least 2 or 3....and has successfully belayed with a grigri multiple times. 4 times let say. In the gym. What you need to do is to teach that person the craft before you go climbing. This instruction needs to start a long time before you get near a cliff. You say: "lets practice belaying". I start with an ATC, but they may be experts with a Grigri and not be comfortable with an atc. So be flexible and it's fine to start with what they know. You'd grab a rope and harness's and get in front of your house and say, "please tie yourself off to that telephone pole and I mosey down the sidewalk and you can set up a belay and belay me over." He isn't going to know shitfuck how to do this. Trust me. But he's looking smokin' hot, so you will show patience in lieu of showing the overt lust still lurking deep within your heart. So show him how to tie himself off to the telephone pole and then more importantly, untie and let him do it so he can learn it for himself. If you don't know how to tie yourself into the pole you are a noob and you need a mentor to help you learn the craft before you start teaching noobs. To any noobs: sorry if you find that last sentence offensive, I already feel bad about copying, er, typing it.

Anyway, the tying in thing is his (and your) first clue that he doesn't know fuck all about jack shit and would kill you at the first opportunity. Explain that the MOST important thing in climbing is not dropping you by giving a perfect belay. Perfect means 100% and explain the math because 100% perfect belays is radically different than 99.8 percent. With 99.8 percent perfect belays you will eventually have the odds catch up to you and get dropped. Possibly resulting in broken bones, pain, even death. Certainly you'll have a psychological issue to overcome every time you see a studmuffin showing his crotch bulge through a pair of stretch Pranas.

So have him connect everything, and from @ 20 feet away and tied in as if you were climbing you slowly walk towards him as he "belays" you ...walking on the sidewalk toward him. You may have to start off right next to him showing the hands and reiterating "NEVER TAKE YOUR BRAKE HAND OFF THE ROPE!!!!!!" Try like hell not to yell or get frustrated or those condoms you bought for the perfect evening will later be used to make balloon puppets. Get him so that he's smooth, then have him belay you back and forth a bit and every few steps you yell 'FALLING" and really do a fall by pulling fast on the rope. Remind him again how critical this single skill is, that him perfecting it will keep you both alive, and congratulate him as he catches on and makes good catches. Then have him switch hands. Then try a different style device. Then just fall with out announcing it as he is belaying you walking towards and away from him, no warning - take off running the other way and put as much energy into it as you can....all while watching him to see what he does.

After he has this dialed perfect, head to the rocks. Notice I didn't say "head to the rocks to go climbing". You are still not "climbing", you are teaching. Sure, you want to get some laps, but more importantly, you want to survive it and develop a great partner. So you have a 3rd person come along, lets call this a "menage-belay-trois." All you are going to do is toprope like in the gym, so have your friend belay your lead, set up a toprope. If you are unsure if studmuffin can belay yet, have him practice with a bunch of slack on the ground. Then once he re-gets it (presumably he "had it" during your telephone pole practice session) have at it. Have studmuffin belay friend. Your job is most important here, it's to make sure that friend survives as he will be jumping off the route. You can easily do this and it doesn't involve picking your nose or letting your hands run over the studmuffin's warm package under his Pranas while you friend is climbing.

You both pay attention to the climber and you stand behind and hold the brake end of the rope, as he is belaying, in a manner not to impede your new boyfriend's ability to give a perfect belay. You are just keeping your hands a hold of the brake rope and standing quietly behind him, not getting in his way and giving him enough slack to belay normally like he needs to do. If he were to totally let go, you could just pull back and it would brake just as if he had done it. Called a firemans belay. Thats why you have 3 folks. As friend climbs you watch him belay and make sure its perfect. If it's not, then you screwed up and didn't stay at the telephone pole long enough. You already clued friend in that he's got to jump off unannounced at a good spot @ 1/2-3/4 of the way up. Don't distract studmuffin or let him know what's going to be going down. You see how this is going? Maybe you repeat it a few times. Eventually, your trust level with be super high, and you'll have seen that hes 100% perfect, which is what all belays should be. He'll be confident of both his ability and also of yours for him: and you'll have the start of a great partner.

Anyway, that's my story. Is it as offensive as Billcoe's story? If so, why? If not, why not?.

ubu wrote:Is it as offensive as Billcoe's story? If so, why? If not, why not?.

It's not (you troll), because our culture is and always has been male dominated.

Pejorative objectification of the dominant group (males) isn't offensive.

In the past and present have males ever been regarded as not being as intelligent/competent as females? No.

Not afforded rights and privileges enjoyed by females? No again

Treated as outright property of our wives? No.

snobbit wrote: This is EXACTLY what is going on here. The original post was sexually intimidating, not because it made funny sex jokes, but because it treated the female student like an object. Just a "thing." A dumb, ignorant creature. She's not a human, she's a hole. You might not have picked up on that, reading the original post. You are a dude so you do not walk down the street or go out on a date (or go climbing with an MPer for the first time!) feeling like you could be potential prey. But that is a day-to-day reality for women. That's our context. And the original post just screamed RAPE CULTURE.

The terrible truth it that this is exactly how some guys see women; as a hole. Would you rather they be obvious about it, or hide it? Speaking as a man who is engaged, I'd rather these individuals be as overt as possible. Much easier for my fiancé to spot that way.