painting hangers

kennoyce wrote:My experience doesn't come from galvanic corrosion of bolts and hangers, but from aircraft, and I can tell you for certain that when extensive galvanic corrosion occurs it leaves behind a pitted surface on the cathode.

Spent 24.5 years in aerospace m'self...mil-c-5541...too fun. Miss having access to a good metallurgist!

Yeah, wouldn't advocate mixing metals for sure.

As far as the OP, I think most stainless hangers kinda dull over in a year or two of being exposed. I don't find the Fixe or Metolius that shiny.

I camo mine with Rustoluem usually, and, a decorative splatter coat to break up the solid color if I'm worried about their visual impact.

Stainless hanger and bolt paint job. Not a bad match.

jim (and others...) quick question - have you guys ever investigated using hot dipped galvanized hangers? it naturally dulls and has fairly good corrosion resistance (again assuming that it doesn't get beat up). not sure if it would be a reasonable solution (no pun intended...) for the actual bolt though.

that being said, i guess any material that has problems once it gets beat up is going to have a tough time. it seems like every step between leaving the house with the gear in your pack and clipping the bolts after they have been installed is going to be an opportunity to get scuffed up.

slim wrote:jim (and others...) quick question - have you guys ever investigated using hot dipped galvanized hangers? it naturally dulls and has fairly good corrosion resistance (again assuming that it doesn't get beat up). not sure if it would be a reasonable solution (no pun intended...) for the actual bolt though. that being said, i guess any material that has problems once it gets beat up is going to have a tough time. it seems like every step between leaving the house with the gear in your pack and clipping the bolts after they have been installed is going to be an opportunity to get scuffed up.

I have no wish to be involved in a product which does this to the cliff;-

Omis
or this;-

Mont St Victoire

These are the direct result of using plated bolts and trying to save about $1 per bolt.
Visual intrusion is a valid topic BUT a shiny stainless bolt is exactly what it is and can be removed in seconds if it is a problem, the chemical damage caused by leaching heavy metals will take hundreds of years to disappear.
Only stainless steel or better was permitted in the European standard of 1996 and while this requirement was removed for the newer version I don´t know of any responsible manufacturer who produces plated anchors for outdoor use.
The most likely treatment for permanently colouring stainless hangers is plasma coating which is avalable in a number of tones and a robust, reliable process, unfortunately there is little research into the corrosion protection when used as a coating on stainless steel.

that's plated though, right? i would expect HDG to perform significantly better than plated.

The upper ones are plated Fixe equipment, the lower ones hot-dipped galvanised glue-ins courtesy of the FFME.
The zinc leaches no matter how it is applied and kills the bacteria responsible for the surface colour on the rock.

slim wrote:that's plated though, right? i would expect HDG to perform significantly better than plated.

It has nothing to do with performance, it has to do with the fact that the zinc from either a plated bolt or a HDG bolt leaches into the water which runs down the rock and kills all of the organisms that give the rock it's grey color and leaves behind the beautiful white streaks seen in Jims photos. The one plus side is that you don't need to add anything to the photos to create a topo!

edit to add that it looks like Jim beat me to it.

kennoyce wrote: It has nothing to do with performance, it has to do with the fact that the zinc from either a plated bolt or a HDG bolt leaches into the water which runs down the rock and kills all of the organisms that give the rock it's grey color and leaves behind the beautiful white streaks seen in Jims photos. The one plus side is that you don't need to add anything to the photos to create a topo! edit to add that it looks like Jim beat me to it.

Beieve me, at Omis you don´t need a topo. All the routes are identical and you can clip any three at the same time as well anyway.

ahhh, interesting. thanks for the info.

Jim Titt wrote: Beieve me, at Omis you don´t need a topo. All the routes are identical and you can clip any three at the same time as well anyway.

I believe you Jim, looking at that first photo you posted it looks like it may be the most grid bolted wall in the world!

Jim Titt wrote: I have no wish to be involved in a product which does this to the cliff;- or this;- These are the direct result of using plated bolts and trying to save about $1 per bolt.

I strongly agree. As you know, I have little patience with people who use a inappropriate material for their area to save a few dollars, only to create a bigger and more costly problem a few years in the future.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: Maybe titanium glue ins are most appropriate everywhere due to their lack of luster?

I would say titanium glue-ins are not just appropriate, but required for highly corrosive areas where stainless steel is not a good long-term solution. Using them in benign environments for cosmetic reasons isn't cost effective.

Besides, the dull grey Ti bolts you've seen appear that way due to sand-blasting and pickling, and are no longer being manufactured.

titanium bolt

The new Eterna bolts are shiny (perhaps not as shiny as stainless) but are very small compared to a conventional bolt & hanger, so the visual impact is small.

The Eterna titanium bolt from Titan Climbing.

Brian in SLC wrote:... I'm all for not mixing metals especially for fixed anchors in climbing. Especially aluminum hangers and steel bolts. But, plated carbon steel and stainless? I'm just not convinced is a huge deal. There's gobs and gobs of stainless hangers and carbon steel bolts/studs out there...

Yes. I just pulled several of them, about a dozen years old, and while the plated bolts were scary rusted, I saw no evidence of galvanic corrosion.

So I just heard a theory that SS316L glue-in bolts broke due to galvanic corrosion because quick-links were hanging from them! I'm skeptical, to say the least. What do you think?

John Byrnes wrote: .... So I just heard a theory that SS316L glue-in bolts broke due to galvanic corrosion because quick-links were hanging from them! I'm skeptical, to say the least. What do you think?

That seems far fetched since any water at the contact point evaporates pretty quickly leaving no electrolyte. The plated bolts with stainless hangers that I have been removing have been very crusty. I have no way of verifying that the rust was accelerated by the mixed metals (but I do suspect it). The rusty bits stay wet a lot longer in porous rock than a dangling quick-link, though.

Interesting thread, lots of great info, most relevant for damp areas (Climbed in Ormis in 2009, have a photo or two of the exact same white streaks, wondered what caused them, thanks for the info).

Camouflaged hanged are a big deal in the public lands of the West, where non-climbers notice shiny hangers, complain to the rangers/land managers, and such complaints can and have affected climbing regulations and access. Shiny bolt hangers have also sometimes been used as target practice.

In the desert, softish sandstone, if I place a 1/2" diameter x ~4" long Powers SS bolt, with burly unpainted Fixe SS hanger, I'd expect it to last maybe 70 years plus, perhaps a century. Factors like wear and tear, actual rock-surface erosion, etc will almost certainly determine the lifespan.

But, if I place the same bolt with hanger painted (with what sounds, now, like all the worst practices: roughing up with extra fine steel wool, then vinegar and/or degreaser to clean, then prime with etching primer, then several coats Rustoleum rock-texture paint), about how many years (decades?) how much will the lifespan be reduced?

Will the painted hanger become the determining factor?

Any thoughts?

EDIT: thanks, John Byrnes, but yes this would be for placing on lead so glue-ins not really practical.

Steve "Crusher" Bartlett wrote: In the desert, softish sandstone, if I place a 1/2" diameter x ~4" long Powers SS bolt, with burly unpainted Fixe SS hanger, I'd expect it to last maybe 70 years plus, perhaps a century. Factors like wear and tear, actual rock-surface erosion, etc will almost certainly determine the lifespan. But, if I place the same bolt with hanger painted (with what sounds, now, like all the worst practices: roughing up with extra fine steel wool, then vinegar and/or degreaser to clean, then prime with etching primer, then several coats Rustoleum rock-texture paint), about how many years (decades?) how much will the lifespan be reduced? Will the painted hanger become the determining factor? Any thoughts?

I don't believe anyone really knows how long they'll last in the desert.

But my $.02 for minimizing visual impact: glue-in bolts are much harder to see, if they are practical for you to place.

I'd hate to f up a glue bolt because I needed to hang on right away though. . .

bus driver wrote:I'd hate to f up a glue bolt because I needed to hang on right away though. . .

The Wave Bolt, according to its maker, is solid enough to hang on even while the glue is still not hardened. The concept is like a drilled angle in the desert BITD, when you'd drill a hole and pound-in the angle piton.

Other than that, one pitch routes, and even longer routes can be put up using Removable Bolts to get to the top (if you can't get there otherwise).

Glue-ins are superior to expansion bolts in every way, except that you have to wait for the glue to dry.

Ask a simple question on MP & you have to wade through a lot of spray. I paint all my hangers assembled with the bolts to paint the bolt heads as well. I use a spray paint enamel primer. Red-Brown, gray or black. Two heavy coats is more than enough. Just make sure the paint all the surfaces. Since the hanger is bent into perpendicular surfaces, its easy to miss a side. I paint chains, quick links & the eye of glue-in bolts with the same primer. Chains take more coats to fully cover every aspect. Usually that's it. The dull primer colors don't stand out even if they don't perfectly match the rock. If you wish to make your hardware blend in more use acrylic paint. After placing the bolt, use acrylic paints in a small tube with a small paint brush. Mix redbrown with grey to get a tan color.

"Glue ins are superior to mechanical bolts in every way, except you have to wait for the glue to dry."

That may be true as long as the hole has been cleaned with compressed air, brushed out, then cleaned again with compressed air. Any dust left in the hole combined with cartridge type glue applicators have been shown to reduce pull out strength by 90%

climbargolis.com/Glue-inBol…

Thanks, Mark Rolofson. Agree that matte primer is super dull and hard to see, works well by itself. I have, in the past, assembled the bolt and hanger then sprayed them. Trouble is, hammering on the bolt head usually removes that paint. I can see experimenting with a tiny tube of acrylic paint and a brush to touch up. I wonder if a brown Sharpie might work? Might be better than nothing.

I'm thinking that realistically, for dry Western climates (except drainage/seep/runoff locations) the paint will barely affect the lifespan of a SS hanger. Though now I'm wondering if the "etching primers" recommended by Rustoleum for SS might be not a good idea (?)

For perspective on this, here's some disturbing eye candy:

supertopo.com/climbers-foru…