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Advice to someone who had their belayer drop them (twice)

christopher adams · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 0
eli poss wrote: I think she's one of those people that can't take a joke, even if she knows it's a joke. If you're reading this Emily, please learn to laugh, it will make the shitshow that is life much more tolerable.
Are you the kind of person who thinks that saying "just kidding" after saying something offensive makes it okay?
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
christopher adams wrote: Are you the kind of person who thinks that saying "just kidding" after saying something offensive makes it okay?
Personally I think people are way over sensitive these days, the people who need to go to sensitivity training are those who are getting hurt feelings not the other way around. It is not likely someone was intending to cause harm and it isn't like someone just had a death in the family and someone said something that triggered feelings that could hurt them by accident.

It is hard to tell through an internet forum who is trying to be hurtful and who is jesting, one of the problem with post. In person you can tell alot easier who is just evil and who is just never serious.

Grow a backbone and get over it, it will make your life alot better.

I grew up working most summers with kids who came from extremely abusive families, girls who were raped by family members, kids who had parents in jail / were physically beaten, and even one that watched his uncle shoot himself in the head because his dad abandoned him and his mom was in jail. There is a huge difference between doing something to trigger painful experience to someone in those situations and the being a cry baby for some random remarks on this forum.
ubu · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 10
ViperScale wrote: Personally I think people are way over sensitive these days, the people who need to go to sensitivity training are those who are getting hurt feelings not the other way around. It is not likely someone was intending to cause harm and it isn't like someone just had a death in the family and someone said something that triggered feelings that could hurt them by accident. It is hard to tell through an internet forum who is trying to be hurtful and who is jesting, one of the problem with post. In person you can tell alot easier who is just evil and who is just never serious. Grow a backbone and get over it, it will make your life alot better. I grew up working most summers with kids who came from extremely abusive families, girls who were raped by family members, kids who had parents in jail / were physically beaten, and even one that watched his uncle shoot himself in the head because his dad abandoned him and his mom was in jail. There is a huge difference between doing something to trigger painful experience to someone in those situations and the being a cry baby for some random remarks on this forum.
This. Especially since the portions of the OP were clearly presented as a form of satire.
B Jolley · · Utah · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 172
ViperScale wrote: Personally I think people are way over sensitive these days,
Jerry Seinfeld, Bill Maher and other comedians will not do college shows anymore because they say this younger generation (entitlement/selfe generation) is too sensitive on every issue.
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
Tom Sherman wrote:I'm offended by Emily's response, and if we want to cry more about it tomorrow, I'll explain. I'll put money down that she's 24 or under, that is the new generation.
How much money? :)

It is a common defense, when faced with a view you don't like, to try to find something about the speaker to attack which in your mind invalidates the viewpoint, saving you from having to deal with it. In this case, you have first invented my age, and then summarily invalidated my viewpoint based on my imaginary age.

For what it's worth, I'm not 24. But it's worth nothing, because you could just as easily say "she's probably over 65, and she's just hopelessly old-fashioned and out of touch" or "she's probably experienced trauma in her life and is now way too sensitive" or "she's probably never experienced trauma in her life and so has no sense of perspective". You can imagine any number of characteristics about me to invalidate my views, but there is more opportunity for growth on all sides if you are willing to deal directly with the content, not the speaker.

eli poss wrote: I think she's one of those people that can't take a joke, even if she knows it's a joke. If you're reading this Emily, please learn to laugh, it will make the shitshow that is life much more tolerable.
Eli, something can be a joke, and also at the same time, be offensive/ignorant/rude/obnoxious/insulting or any other flavor of inappropriate. Whether joke, speech, poetry, or prose - you are responsible for your words. If someone is offended by your joke, it's possible not that they don't comprehend what a joke is, but that you made an offensive joke.
snobbit · · Denver, CO · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 10

The fact that several people spoke up to say the OP is a misogynistic pile of shit, but only the female writer was directly attacked, is, in fact, a PERFECT example of the way sexism works.

Many men on MP will be very happy if Em Cos (and the few other women who will post here) is successfully silenced. The rest will shrug.

This thread has become a real bummer.

Maria

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
christopher adams wrote: Are you the kind of person who thinks that saying "just kidding" after saying something offensive makes it okay?
no I am not. If I say something that offends somebody I respond be either apologizing or telling them to grow some thicker skin, depending on the situation.

And to Em: in this society, it is hard to be humorous without risking offending somebody because many people are extremely sensitive. should we just abandon humor because it offends people or should we just hope that some day people will grow some thick skin and continue on with our humor?

The OP was just trying to be satirical, which is perfectly acceptable because it lightens the mood of the otherwise sad and unfortunate content. just because a couple of people on the internet didn't like the satire doesn't mean it was a pile of rubbish. then again, I may not have read the original unedited post.
Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

I'm a big fan of this 1st Amendment thingy. You can say what you like, and if you dislike something someone else said, you can say whatever you want about THAT.

My POV is if you want to make offensive comments, go right ahead but be prepared to have people tell you they don't like it, respond in kind, or stop associating with you.

And if you find something offensive, feel free to let everyone know. Just don't expect the offender to care or change.

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
snobbit wrote:Many men on MP will be very happy if Em Cos (and the few other women who will post here) is successfully silenced.
Although I am one of the men on MP who Em has called out, I would not be happy if she was silenced. She successfully puts things into a perspective that I am not often able to see, and whether or not I agree with said perspective, I still value her posts. It's people like her that keep others from going too far, outside of the realm that is socially acceptable. Additionally, she has posted some valuable information, along the lines of what you would expect from someone like rgold or bearbreeder.
ubu · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 10
Em Cos wrote: Eli, something can be a joke, and also at the same time, be offensive/ignorant/rude/obnoxious/insulting or any other flavor of inappropriate. Whether joke, speech, poetry, or prose - you are responsible for your words. If someone is offended by your joke, it's possible not that they don't comprehend what a joke is, but that you made an offensive joke.
There are very few jokes that don't offend *someone*, and the ones that don't generally aren't very funny. That doesn't mean you don't have the right to be offended, but it's a heck of a lot easier to go through life laughing than being pissed off by every perceived slight in the form of an off-color joke.

In any case, I may be misreading Bill's original post, but it seems to me he was making fun of men using climbing to get some action, and not noob women climbers. Maybe that's the group that should take offense, if they care to do so.
Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

I have mixed feelings about political correctness, but the original post was creepy as hell. Like he wasn't quite sure if he was writing on MP or to Penthouse forum.

Even if that was his intention, the OP doesn't really have the writing ability to create effective satire.

One of the biggest shitshows of a post I've ever read on MP.

Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433
ViperScale wrote: Personally I think people are way over sensitive these days
ViperScale wrote: There is a huge difference between doing something to trigger painful experience to someone in those situations and the being a cry baby for some random remarks on this forum.
mediocre wrote: [about OP] since he is a male obviously it'll be through a males perspective. Although I never read this unedited version Em is talking about, that does sound a little creepy.
ubu wrote: This. Especially since the portions of the OP were clearly presented as a form of satire.
ubu wrote: clearly presented as a form of satire.
ubu wrote: SATIRE
Super Fluke wrote: Jerry Seinfeld, Bill Maher and other comedians will not do college shows anymore because they say this younger generation (entitlement/selfe generation) is too sensitive on every issue.
'

Wow, very happy to see that others in this community, can reflects some of my sentiments, and it seems ubu and superfluke hit the nail on the head with EXACTLY what I wanted to say.

Emily while you have the right to be offended, and I am not going to take that away from you, what I am not going to stand for is your promotion of public-shaming which is the era of this time. Go to CNN or twitter for that, those outlets seem to do very well with the political correctness policing, but as a member of this community, I will stand up and speak out about this, or fall on the blade need be. If you want to do your "I'm offended" act that's great, but I'm going to speak up when you try to turn it into a rally up the lynch mob thing. You attacked what Bill said with your self-stated prejudices of the content of these forums, you had the torch in hand waiting to burn "the last straw", well this isn't it. If Bill had said something directly offensive to women than that would be a different story. But rather he said some terms, which you and quite presumably many others would be happy to misconstrue as being offensive to women. And then you tried to take them out of context, attach this bogus ever-globalizing viewpoint and shame him out.

But here's the thing. He wasn't speaking to you, you weren't his target audience. So while you can stand up and say your offended, that's as stupid as me walking into a mosque and overhearing people speak in Arabic and then me saying that I'm offended. For a reason unbeknownst to me, Bill set off on bitching about the dangers of bad belaying but through a twist on it of scenarios specific to climber guys teaching inexperienced women. This is a real phenomenon, this is something that I do, this is something that I did last weekend. It's a real societal issue that exists. Now also very much like me, bill very emotionally decided to explain his argument in SATIRE. This is something I've always done because it seems to me that nobody perks their ears up to a damn thing unless you're a little extreme.

Ok so now we have the scenario. Bill, speaking in satire, to males. Now let's continue on with the lesson, anybody ever taken a speech class? Well I can't remember all the terms. But when words come out of each others' mouths they don't hit everybody the same. There's a hierarchy of elements to words that contribute to how we interpret them. The first and most obvious being language, and eventually farther down the line we have lingo. Here's an example of the confusion of lingo: The term PT. What does it mean? Well actually it means something completely different be it in a medical, military, civil, or construction context.
How I as a white male climber, two armed, new england native, reading MP via mobile while commuting along the highway, in 2015 on the x'th day of August, perceived his tirade as such. He was speaking to males, using exaggerated lingo in reference to women, in order to reach his target audience and connect via a familiarity with language and values. (and by value I mean, trying to impress beautiful women) Again, this was exaggerated, because it was satire. Why he chose to do this, I don't know, it sounds like he's had some specific experiences which so enthralled him to set off about it. Could he have said it differently, obviously, he could have spoken in Klingon if he has so likened to, but none of our business to regulate that.

Very sorry you misperceived his argument to be intentionally/ coincidentally offending women. Very unfortunate it's been edited so we can't bitch about it more (didn't someone originally quote it?). Would still be very interested to see how calling a woman a hottie is objectifying them and how that is a bad thing. Seems to me "objectifying women" is more of a catch-phrase for a feminist bitch fest, and less frequently used to apply to criticizing one for being demeaning to women.

Disclaimers: My viewpoints are not necessarily expressed or shared by anyone else I mentioned or vice versa, I don't necessarily agree with the OP or disagree with what he said.
If I spoke condescending it's because I'm offended by the feeble minded nature that is the current sensitive/ politically correct societal trends.
I wasn't going to discriminate you by age acting elitist or not by being younger or older, I was establishing that your viewpoints are very much in alignment with the younger generation.
I often get emotionally charged up about my beliefs and could have missed something or be wrong, will wear the dunce cap for whoever points it out.

Look up SATIRE
Look up SEXIST
Look up OBJECTIFY

Stop looking for reasons to be offended. If I were to say something as stupid as women are vegetables or men are fruits, than by all means stand up and tell me I'm wrong, but this new generation of expecting to stand up and say "I'm offended" and "You're bad".... well I think you're a bunch of ass-hats and I don't want it being done in my community.

... since writing this

snobbit you're wrong, reread, Emily's response is the first extended post that intentionally tried to solicit response

I don't usually pay attention to anything eli poss says

mathias, yup

UBU, yes, this needs to be stated again. If anything, Bill's post was offensive in that it was condescending to hormonal men who do stupid shit for the attention/ affection of attractive females.

Christian, yes shitshow, more's coming!
Dan Austin · · San Francisco, CA · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 0
  • **cat calls a woman walking by, gets a dirty look in return***

"hey lighten up, lady, can't you take a compliment?!"
Dan Austin · · San Francisco, CA · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 0
Tom Sherman wrote: If anything, Bill's post was offensive in that it was condescending to hormonal men who do stupid shit for the attention/ affection of attractive females.
and furthermore, why don't we have a WHITE history month?!???!?!
LindsayH · · Kingston, NY · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 55
Tom Sherman wrote:If Bill had said something directly offensive to women than that would be a different story. But rather he said some terms, which you and quite presumably many others would be happy to misconstrue as being offensive to women.
If a bunch of women found something offensive (and clearly it wasn't just Emily), then it's offensive to women, regardless of the OP's original intent.

Tom Sherman wrote:But here's the thing. He wasn't speaking to you, you weren't his target audience. So while you can stand up and say your offended, that's as stupid as me walking into a mosque and overhearing people speak in Arabic and then me saying that I'm offended.... Ok so now we have the scenario. Bill, speaking in satire, to males.
I'm pretty sure he never said he was only speaking to males. This forum is populated by both men and women. Your analogy of walking into a mosque and being offended by people speaking Arabic (I'm assuming in that analogy you yourself are not Muslim), implies that women don't belong here and, therefore, our arguments are invalid. We've wandered into a place where we're the outsider, so it doesn't matter if we don't like something. We just have to put up with it or get out.
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Tom Sherman wrote: ' Wow, very happy to see that others in this community, can reflects some of my sentiments, and it seems ubu and superfluke hit the nail on the head with EXACTLY what I wanted to say. Emily while you have the right to be offended, and I am not going to take that away from you, what I am not going to stand for is your promotion of public-shaming which is the era of this time. Go to CNN or twitter for that, those outlets seem to do very well with the political correctness policing, but as a member of this community, I will stand up and speak out about this, or fall on the blade need be. If you want to do your "I'm offended" act that's great, but I'm going to speak up when you try to turn it into a rally up the lynch mob thing. You attacked what Bill said with your self-stated prejudices of the content of these forums, you had the torch in hand waiting to burn "the last straw", well this isn't it. If Bill had said something directly offensive to women than that would be a different story. But rather he said some terms, which you and quite presumably many others would be happy to misconstrue as being offensive to women. And then you tried to take them out of context, attach this bogus ever-globalizing viewpoint and shame him out. But here's the thing. He wasn't speaking to you, you weren't his target audience. So while you can stand up and say your offended, that's as stupid as me walking into a mosque and overhearing people speak in Arabic and then me saying that I'm offended. For a reason unbeknownst to me, Bill set off on bitching about the dangers of bad belaying but through a twist on it of scenarios specific to climber guys teaching inexperienced women. This is a real phenomenon, this is something that I do, this is something that I did last weekend. It's a real societal issue that exists. Now also very much like me, bill very emotionally decided to explain his argument in SATIRE. This is something I've always done because it seems to me that nobody perks their ears up to a damn thing unless you're a little extreme. Ok so now we have the scenario. Bill, speaking in satire, to males. Now let's continue on with the lesson, anybody ever taken a speech class? Well I can't remember all the terms. But when words come out of each others' mouths they don't hit everybody the same. There's a hierarchy of elements to words that contribute to how we interpret them. The first and most obvious being language, and eventually farther down the line we have lingo. Here's an example of the confusion of lingo: The term PT. What does it mean? Well actually it means something completely different be it in a medical, military, civil, or construction context. How I as a white male climber, two armed, new england native, reading MP via mobile while commuting along the highway, in 2015 on the x'th day of August, perceived his tirade as such. He was speaking to males, using exaggerated lingo in reference to women, in order to reach his target audience and connect via a familiarity with language and values. (and by value I mean, trying to impress beautiful women) Again, this was exaggerated, because it was satire. Why he chose to do this, I don't know, it sounds like he's had some specific experiences which so enthralled him to set off about it. Could he have said it differently, obviously, he could have spoken in Klingon if he has so likened to, but none of our business to regulate that. Very sorry you misperceived his argument to be intentionally/ coincidentally offending women. Very unfortunate it's been edited so we can't bitch about it more (didn't someone originally quote it?). Would still be very interested to see how calling a woman a hottie is objectifying them and how that is a bad thing. Seems to me "objectifying women" is more of a catch-phrase for a feminist bitch fest, and less frequently used to apply to criticizing one for being demeaning to women. Disclaimers: My viewpoints are not necessarily expressed or shared by anyone else I mentioned or vice versa, I don't necessarily agree with the OP or disagree with what he said. If I spoke condescending it's because I'm offended by the feeble minded nature that is the current sensitive/ politically correct societal trends. I wasn't going to discriminate you by age acting elitist or not by being younger or older, I was establishing that your viewpoints are very much in alignment with the younger generation. I often get emotionally charged up about my beliefs and could have missed something or be wrong, will wear the dunce cap for whoever points it out. Look up SATIRE Look up SEXIST Look up OBJECTIFY Stop looking for reasons to be offended. If I were to say something as stupid as women are vegetables or men are fruits, than by all means stand up and tell me I'm wrong, but this new generation of expecting to stand up and say "I'm offended" and "You're bad".... well I think you're a bunch of ass-hats and I don't want it being done in my community. ... since writing this snobbit you're wrong, reread, Emily's response is the first extended post that intentionally tried to solicit response I don't usually pay attention to anything eli poss says mathias, yup UBU, yes, this needs to be stated again. If anything, Bill's post was offensive in that it was condescending to hormonal men who do stupid shit for the attention/ affection of attractive females. Christian, yes shitshow, more's coming!
Quoted in case he does the same craven thing as Bill did with his OP.
Apparently he is also as much a misogynist as Bill.
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
LindsayH wrote: If a bunch of women found something offensive (and clearly it wasn't just Emily), then it's offensive to women, regardless of the OP's original intent. I'm pretty sure he never said he was only speaking to males. This forum is populated by both men and women. Your analogy of walking into a mosque and being offended by people speaking Arabic (I'm assuming in that analogy you yourself are not Muslim), implies that women don't belong here and, therefore, our arguments are invalid. We've wandered into a place where we're the outsider, so it doesn't matter if we don't like something. We just have to put up with it or get out.
+1, on both her points.
Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

It's not YOUR community to unilaterally make decisions about, Tom.

There's a spectrum, and without a doubt there are people that take advantage of the new climate of political correctness to try to grasp attention and power they wouldn't have by other means. Or they just don't have the emotional stability or even sanity to deal w the additional power. (see string of lawsuits and complaints filed by the latest shooter).

But this wasn't a case of that.

If a mixed gender group went out for drinks after work and one of the men said: " Look at that hottie at the bar in a miniskirt, I want to run my hands all up inside her warm panties." (and most of that is pretty much verbatim from the OP )...

You don't think that would be creating a hostile environment for the women in the group? An environment that tends to diminish the power of the women in it just by the fact that they're women and the fact that the men in it don't want to relinquish any power whatsoever?

You don't think this could weaken the overall power of the group as it competes with other groups? (ie woman who is one of the top performers gets sick of the crap and leaves for another company)?

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
ubu wrote:That doesn't mean you don't have the right to be offended, but it's a heck of a lot easier to go through life laughing than being pissed off by every perceived slight in the form of an off-color joke.
+1
I figured this one out when I was 17 and have been significantly happier since.

Christian wrote:If a mixed gender group went out for drinks after work and one of the men said: " Look at that hottie at the bar in a miniskirt, I want to run my hands all up inside her warm panties."... You don't think that would be creating a hostile environment for the women in the group?
This, IMO, would because it goes into detail. If one of the men were to say "Look at that hottie", however, it would not. And if you want to get your undergarments in a bunch over someone expressing that a female (or male, for that matter) is attractive, you have the right to do so. But you have no right to shame that person over saying the word "hottie"
LindsayH · · Kingston, NY · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 55
eli poss wrote: This, IMO, would because it goes into detail.
The detail in this example came almost word for word from the original unedited post.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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