Belaying Second in Guide mode - right or left?

youtu.be/5O_AbqaER04

Is a guide plate the same as a Reverso?

"Belaying from the top in guide mode is obvious.

Lowering I use this method:
youtu.be/JoZ-5xr8LEM"

^^
So in this video, I noticed that the guy had his climber unweight the system prior to finalizing the transition from guide mode to lowering. What about when you have someone fully weighting the rope? This is what I was talking about, in saying it was pretty advanced. It's been taught to me, but I need to see it and practice it.

Roman G wrote: A plate device in guide mode is suppose to lock up and I have never heard of an incident of a plate device not locking the rope in guide mode.

Had it happen to me once while belaying. I was belaying two seconds at the same time and there were twist in the strands. First climber gets to the belay and is about 20 feet above the third, tie a backup knot and they lean back and drop quickly to the knot. There were 2 or 3 twists in the strands and what we figured is the twists prevented the device from locking up properly. Takeaway points: keep a hand in control of the brakes and tie a backup once the seconds arrive at the belay.

Thank you, healyje! Since that Peregrine stock you fought for probably came from my town, where the raptor folks are now working on Condors... And if you refer to Beacon Rock in the Gorge, which historically had condors, hmmm...reintroduction of essentially pterodactyls? Might suddenly up the cooperation.

Now my actual climbing question, for you and all those others who can not only argue at length about anything, but also have experience to back it up: how, how, how, am I expected to make all the critically important judgements required all the time in climbing, which I have to make right now, or you know, yer gonna die, when everything is contradicted by someone else somewhere?

Case in point: Taught to belay by climber number 1, with ATC (basic, level ground, top rope belay). Climber one says brake hand down by hip. Literally next person who sees me belaying corrects me. "That's old school! It's much easier/better/safer with your brake hand in front of you, under the ATC." Really?

Just an example, that seems to be the rule, not the exception, and its my life you're messing with.

P.S. healyje, et. al, if I ever encounter someone I trust to teach me I would very happily learn a hip belay.

The orientation is irrelevant providing the device is free to rotate

Plenty of folks use autoblock mode for ascension, in fact petzl had a "how to" ascend with a reverso article ... In which case the reverso is upside down

If folks would simply go out and test the autoblock in such situations they would figure all this out quickly

Rather than yapping on MP

;)

Russ Keane wrote: What about when you have someone fully weighting the rope? This is what I was talking about, in saying it was pretty advanced. It's been taught to me, but I need to see it and practice it.

Here's a video that demonstrates how to perform a weighted lower (there are other variations, but these work fine):

youtube.com/watch?v=LLHGGaC…

Yapping on MP? That's what I DO!!!

Weighted lower. Great video.

FrankPS wrote: Here's a video that demonstrates how to perform a weighted lower (there are other variations, but these work fine):

youtube.com/watch?v=LLHGGaC…

When she suggests levering the plate up with a carabiner (Method 2 at 0:45) without installing a "third hand" autoblock on the harness, a procedure that seems to be recommended by all the AMGA guides making analogous videos, she is recommending something that has probably led to the most lowering accidents, since the plate can release suddenly and once the rope is running autoblocking may not be recoverable.

If you are very expert with the carabiner lever, or if you are lowering the second down a low-angle slab, fine, but I suspect few people put in the kind of practice needed to always safely lower someone whose full weight is on the device.

Moreover, I'm not entirely sure the autoblock backup will work if, as is necessary, it is being pushed down by the brake hand while the plate is being levered. If the plate releases suddenly at a moment when the rope is already running, then the belayer might have to let go of the brake strand in order to get the autoblock to work. I don't think that's likely to happen.

So you probably want to redirect through a higher carabiner or install a Munter on the harness when using the carabiner lever for what you thought was going to be a short lower.

The amount of faffery needed for a long lower of a hanging climber is, if anyone could be objective for a moment, absolutely hilarious, especially amusing since you transition to a harness belay, which you could have started out using and encountered none of these issues. The moral is that full weighted lowers with a guide plate should only occur in emergency situations. If it is known or suspected ahead of time that the second could end up hanging and need to be lowered a substantial distance, setting up a guide-plate belay is arguably the wrong choice.

Old lady H wrote:Now my actual climbing question, for you and all those others who can not only argue at length about anything, but also have experience to back it up: how, how, how, am I expected to make all the critically important judgements required all the time in climbing, which I have to make right now, or you know, yer gonna die, when everything is contradicted by someone else somewhere?

Anyone can offer the opinion on the internet. I think there is value to be extracted from most of these discussions, in spite of the trolling, ad hominem attacks, misunderstandings, and ignorance, but unfortunately you have to already be somewhat experienced, thoughtful, and not doctrinaire to reliably benefit. This leaves novices in limbo, buffeted by sometimes contradictory authoritatively-voiced opinions.

There's no harm in trying to take in the arguments, but the answer to your question is that you can't be expected to separate the wheat from the chaff or understand that sometimes alternate approaches may each in their own way have benefits and drawbacks and selection depends on circumstances. Not until you've got some more experience to serve as a base for evaluation.

So what to do in the meantime? Books and certified guides are a good source of basic information. Start there. Experienced mentors sounds like a good idea, but who knows what that "experience" actually is?

Here are some guidelines.

1. People advocating a position ought to be able to support their claims with reasoning that makes sense to you. If they're just shouting, or "pulling rank" by claiming to be "experienced," and if their reasons just don't seem to make sense, I'd wait to hear some sensible support before giving their claims much credence.

For example, in the case of the hand position you brought up, saying a method is "old-school" as a way of dismissing it tells you absolutely nothing about whether or not it is a good idea. Such a characterization contains no explanation and suggests the person giving the advice is comfortable using irrelevant criteria or downright bias in making judgements. This makes it more urgent to find independent support for any further advice from them. Meanwhile, your response should be a request for an explanation about why one of those hand positions is preferable to the other.

2. Beware of people who say or act as if there is only one right way. This is rarely true in climbing, and I think a safe climber will have multiple possible strategies for most situations.

3. Understand that there is a spectrum of practices in which different types of risk are balanced. The amount of time you take can be of no concern or a critical element in your survival. Make sure you know the context of the discussion, and beware of people who insist inappropriately on either of the extremes, either fussy and overly redundant behaviors when time is of the essence, or full-speed-ahead shortcutting when time really isn't a factor.

4. Don't be afraid to think things through and reach your own conclusions, which is to say you don't have to believe everything some "authority" says. If something about it doesn't ring true, try to find out from other people what they think, and in the meantime avoid implementing the recommendation until you are comfortable with it.

Very early in my climbing career, I obtained a book by Kenneth A. Henderson, a very prominent American mountaineer, published by the American Alpine Club. It was called Handbook of American Mountaineering. This seemed as authoritative as you could get, but on the other hand it was "old-school" for the time, having been published a year before I was born. Well, in it I found some of the most obviously ridiculous belaying advice imaginable---you didn't need much in the way of experience to realize some of that stuff would get people killed. How Henderson managed to put that idiocy in, and how the AAC allowed it in print, is a mystery to me, but inexperienced or not, I knew profound stupidity when I saw it.

So do you. So "trust, but verify."

To rgold's point:

you'll soon realize which people on these threads have something meaningful to say...skim over the "THIS IS THE WAY TO DO IT" posts and focus on what rgold, bearbreeder (as two examples) have to say.

and further: anyone claiming to know THE WAY is probably nursing an ego thing. as rgold said, there are few times when a single way of doing something is appropriate.

there are plenty of mentors and experienced people around, but the problem is separating wheat and chaff, as rgold said. a certified guide is one way of at least guaranteeing somebody has vetted this person. if s/he passed their exams, they've at least demonstrated a baseline body of knowledge.

happy to help anybody find a certified guide in his/her area, or you can check the AMGA website for a list of guides.

good luck!

Dun listen to internet forum yappers like myself for advice .... Period

Theres plenty of reputable sources. .... If u want intrawebz advice at least go to ones that are somewhat vetted like "official" climbing organization sites

Better yet pick up one of the recent books or vids ... Or hire a poor unemployed guide so he can stop delivering pizza

Join an alpine club so that there are folks that are actually interested in yr safety rather than pushing an intrawebz agenda

Theres absolutely no reason why u should listen to a lazy AZN who breeds bears all day (im breeding one as i type this)

;)

Thanks so much! I confess, I have a lot of mileage on me, so I am quite fine with having my own opinion on everything, when its important to do so, and sticking with it. Most dangerous thing to do, is ignore the real "yer gonna die" ( not the one that makes climbing so fun), and talk yourself into something. Sadly, with not even my first year in as a climber yet, I have seen people override their own judgement. Fortunately with no consequence.

On the other hand, I am totally open to all the different things to do and ways to do them, or I wouldn't have tried climbing in the first place. And the trust that requires, and getting over not fitting in, being embarrassed, on and on.

Lucky for me, my first, best, and always favorite partner (my son) came to it from SAR, and is an EMT on top of that. So, safety is way up there. Plus, got to learn fun stuff many don't ever do. First trip was rappelling, then he made me my own set of Purcell's and we went ascending, then building anchors for toproping. Know how to tell bomber sagebrush?

I will definitely be trying to find someone to give my money to, cause I is a typical climber who got none, and don't want to waste it once I scrape it together. If I get stuck there, I'll yell your direction for help. Technique is the only thing that will let me climb (I do have some real limitations), so some good coaching would be worth it!

Thanks again, for your kind, thoughtful, gracious input! Bet ya don't see gracious here much!

rgold wrote: The amount of faffery needed for a long lower of a hanging climber is, if anyone could be objective for a moment, absolutely hilarious, especially amusing since you transition to a harness belay, which you could have started out using and encountered none of these issues. The moral is that full weighted lowers with a guide plate should only occur in emergency situations.

Agreed. Assuming that you wouldn't have chosen a locking guide belay if you didn't think needing to lower was very unlikely, my assumption during these discussions is that if you find you have an unexpected need to lower your second a long distance, then something has gone wrong. What non-emergency need for this would there be? As a follower, if I fall off something and find myself hanging in space, that's what my prussiks are for. In which case, whether I am the follower ascending the rope or the belayer, I'm just as happy to have the security of the locking belay off the anchor.

Belay devices are tools - and just like you can pound a nail with a wrench - it's not the best tool for a most situations. Learn not only how to use things but when one is the best tool for the job. Several ways of belaying can work - learn them all - and also learn the strengths and weaknesses of each - then use appropriately. I guess the secret is in the learning.

Em Cos wrote: As a follower, if I fall off something and find myself hanging in space, that's what my prussiks are for. In which case, whether I am the follower ascending the rope or the belayer, I'm just as happy to have the security of the locking belay off the anchor.

Good point. In an ideal world, all followers would be properly prepared for this, as you are.

But especially if they are being belayed with a guide plate, because with that belay the probability goes up that they will be launched into space because they couldn't get slack to move down or sideways.

Hopefully if one is taking someone up a climb where getting "launched into space" is a possibility they are solid climbers IMHO

I know, gunks.......

Exactly. In the Gunks you can possibly end up hanging in space on a 5.4.

That video is great- I didn't realize you could "ratchet" a few inches of slack that easily.

As for the transferring of the load to a munter- Sorry but I do NOT want some average Joe leader trying to do this while I am dangling in space. The video reminded me of how intricate this is, and how easy it would be to mess that up and drop someone.

This whole thread is a great reminder for me, to get out of the habit of using Guide Mode every single time I multi pitch. Either that or I need to be committed to understanding the concepts, and be able to transfer loads, and get out of guide mode belay.

And yes- I reviewed rgold's comments on method #2 from the video.... Scary to think of the climber falling and the auto block won't re-engage, and it's too late to do anything with the brake hand. Again, tricky concepts.