Advice to someone who had their belayer drop them (twice)

Jake Jones wrote:I think the whole OP could be summarized with one sentence: Do not let your libido make decisions for you.

That advice has been given for centuries but rarely followed.

pics or it didn't happen.

Billcoe wrote:Then have her switch hands. Then try a different style device. Then just fall with out announcing it as she is belaying you walking towards and away from her, no warning -take off running the other way and put as much energy into it as you can....all while watching her to see what she does. Belaying is a skill and like all skills, perfect practice makes you better. So practice. After she has this dialed perfect, head to the rocks. Notice I didn't say "head to the rocks to go climbing". You are still not "climbing", you are teaching.

Seriously? You think someone can “dialed perfect” belaying by pulling slack horizontally through a belay device while you climb a sidewalk? If you really do what you preach, I’d like to see a video of that. Bonus style point for using “Stayin’ Alive” as the soundtrack.

It takes practice to belay well, but it’s not rocket science. You don’t need computer simulations and mock toproping just to learn the few simple motions. Go to a gym, don’t climb higher than you’re willing to jump, free solo a kiddie’s route while “on belay”, have them practice lower you from 10 feet up, have a backup person on the brake strand, keep doing that until they've learn the technique. There are many ways to keep it safe while teaching someone new, and they can TR a few things too and have a little fun. That way you won't bore a new climber away from climbing, plus it's just not nearly as creepy as asking them to come over to your house to learn how to belay.

I had a belay partner drop me 15 feet to the ground outdoors once on a port route. He looked at me and said "I didn't think you would fall". That was the end of him belaying me for quite some time. About a year later I decided to give him another chance (I had climbed with him for a while and had plenty of experience with him before he dropped me), so we did some basic top roping at the gym. Well, first belay of the day, and he drops me from about 12 feet up and catches me about a foot or 2 off the ground. I looked at him and he was sheepish. Needless to say, I will never let him belay me again.

aikibujin wrote: plus it's just not nearly as creepy as asking them to come over to your house to learn how to belay.

Man! No wonder I haven't been able to get a date in years! It all makes so much sense now.... ;)

I used to have this hanging in the back of my old van. I would be all like "hey baby you wanna learn how to tie limiter knots baby?" "Hi you wanna see my quad anchor building skills honey?" The police confiscated that van but let keep the board. Win!

Bill Kirby wrote: I used to have this hanging in the back of my old van. I would be all like "hey baby you wanna learn how to tie limiter knots baby?" "Hi you wanna see my quad anchor building skills honey?" The police confiscated that van but let keep the board. Win!

I bet that van got confiscated after the sheriff found his daughter hanging out with you

This is getting scary!

Back on topic. If that someone dropped you twice, I would bet it would only take them being dropped once to get the picture.

Of course, I'm not condoning that you are to intentionally cause injury or scare a person, but they will come to terms themselves on how important having the belay in their hands really is if it ever does happen. Don't drop anyone!

How many times have you come close to wrecking your car? You practice first. Get your license and drive for years... until something happens. Same parallels with the discussion here.

Once proficient, keep an eye out for complacency.

That is scary.

rocknice2 wrote: If you're still talking to them.... SMOKIN' HOT !!

I have to say.....this is one of the few posts that actually had me laughing out loud....except for the OP, that post is full of ridiculousness. :)

Your safety is your responsibility.

It's a slow Friday and I took the time to read the complete thread. Now that I'm about to click submit I've seen about a 100 financial twits go by...

Bill may have come off a little sexist, preachy and patronizing. Curmudgeon is the adjective which comes to mind.

Nevertheless, IMO the substance of your thread is valid.

Stepping back in time, when I was guiding and instructing, the guide School required almost the identical protocol you laid out when starting with complete beginners. Harness and tie in instruction, ground belays, back up belayers. And only top roping on the first 2 days.

Fast forward quite a few years...reading here on the MP forums and R&Ice, I am beginning to think belayer competency is a skill I should be evaluating more often and more thoroughly. How I have always done this, in a non confrontational low key way, is to go to some low commitment place with a minimum party of 3.

Being a self admitted "climbing slut", these day I'll check out any new "proclaimed experienced" partner by leading something well within my ability (where we can see each other) and lower myself while being backed up by my belayer; yes, I have been dropped (on lead, on lower and on top rope) more than once but not by the same partner.

That's for a one on one scenario with no third person with whom I have climbing history. We get reciprocal evaluation.

If that first belay worked OK, then I more or less put any doubts about my belayer's ability and competence on the back burner; baring other exigencies: for instance.... belayer starts a ground conversation, being checked during clip sequence, sensing excess slack not getting sucked out after a clip, etc....I'm good to go.

These behaviors are "dealbreakers" for me.

1. having my partner unclip me at a station.
2. Once past the beginning instruction stage; observing my partner take the brake hand off the anchor side of the belay rope.

If someone tells me they have been climbing a while; these behaviors are "red flags" for me.

1. The belayer, managing a top rope, does not take out most of rope stretch for entry moves which are cruxy for the route.
2. The belayer neglects the "pre-climb" conversation. On single pitch sport routes for instance: are you going to lower or rap; how tight do you want your belay on this route? are you cleaning the gear or leaving it.
3. The belayer, managing a top rope, doesn't keep the rope "mended" as the climber ascends and constantly has to be asked to "up rope".
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One thing I learned guiding and in my trade career is people learn in different ways, but pretty much universally they're programmed to resist learning if your instruction techniques have even the slightest whiff of sexism, racism or patronization.

Climbers who come out of the gym environment may feel like they are competent and have a good grasp of basic safe practices. I find you have to be more vigilant, and having observed a IYO poor practice, hold back on interceding, yet be prepared in a worst case scenario to prevent an accident.

In an instructor/student environment there always comes an instance where I set the stage by saying; Today I am letting you make all you own mistakes without me per-intervening long as you don't kill us both. Obviously you are not behaving like that with someone you just met.

It helps the dynamic if you make yourself approachable, ask for feedback, encourage questions and deal with the questions patiently and thoroughly.

Showing your integrity, while having a sense of humor about yourself really goes a long way.

JohnnyG wrote: I was hoping Em Cos would reply to this one, and once again she is spot on. Billcoe- you should just delete this thread.

Dylan B. wrote: I think it's unfortunate that Em has become the token vocal feminist on this forum. The rest of us need to step up our game. I recognize that it's partly because she writes well, and has good, witty comebacks; but it's also because some of us just shrug our shoulders when we see stupid sexism.

I just think that all the people should be treated like people, and I have a willingness (or perhaps compulsion?) to speak my mind.

I honestly don't know if it's MP or my own perceptions, but lately it feels like I've stumbled into a men's locker room unnoticed, and I'm seeing an uglier side of what some men will say when they think no women are listening.

I want to thank you JohnnyG and Dylan B., this thread felt to me like a last straw - I was honestly feeling like hey if I'm the only one who sees this or cares, why bother. I couldn't believe how disgustingly offensive it was and how it seems that aspect of the post flew by completely unnoticed by many of those who have replied. Being a "token" anything is lonely, and I would ask that any of you who agree, men and women, try not to shrug your shoulders and leave it to others to point out. It's important for me and all the other women on here (yes, they are here even if they don't post often) to see that for every man who thinks it's no big deal to objectify and belittle women that there are other (hopefully even more!) men who do not find it acceptable. If you are not feeling eloquent even a "Hey man, that's not cool." or a word of support for others who speak out goes a long way. So thank you.

And one last thought, for anyone who might be on the fence and wondering what was so offensive about that original post: Do you have a sister, beloved female friend, mother, daughter - any woman or girl in your life who you care deeply about but do not consider a potential sexual conquest? Ok, read the post again and imagine that SHE is the woman Billcoe is talking about "running his hands over her panties through her dress" (or whatever the exact phrasing was before it was edited) while supposedly teaching her how to belay, then let us know how you feel about it.

Em Cos wrote: I just think that all the people should be treated like people, and I have a willingness (or perhaps compulsion?) to speak my mind. I honestly don't know if it's MP or my own perceptions, but lately it feels like I've stumbled into a men's locker room unnoticed, and I'm seeing an uglier side of what some men will say when they think no women are listening. I want to thank you JohnnyG and Dylan B., this thread felt to me like a last straw - I was honestly feeling like hey if I'm the only one who sees this or cares, why bother. I couldn't believe how disgustingly offensive it was and how it seems that aspect of the post flew by completely unnoticed by many of those who have replied. Being a "token" anything is lonely, and I would ask that any of you who agree, men and women, try not to shrug your shoulders and leave it to others to point out. It's important for me and all the other women on here (yes, they are here even if they don't post often) to see that for every man who thinks it's no big deal to objectify and belittle women that there are other (hopefully even more!) men who do not find it acceptable. If you are not feeling eloquent even a "Hey man, that's not cool." or a word of support for others who speak out goes a long way. So thank you. And one last thought, for anyone who might be on the fence and wondering what was so offensive about that original post: Do you have a sister, beloved female friend, mother, daughter - any woman or girl in your life who you care deeply about but do not consider a potential sexual conquest? Ok, read the post again and imagine that SHE is the woman Billcoe is talking about "running his hands over her panties through her dress" (or whatever the exact phrasing was before it was edited) while supposedly teaching her how to belay, then let us know how you feel about it.

I don't enjoy arguing with idiots, so I usually just flag posts I consider inappropriate. If Admin thinks I'm over-reacting they can ignore my complaint.

In the case of this OP, my immediate reaction was tsdr (too stupid, don't read) so I haven't. Maybe I jumped to the wrong conclusion, but doesn't sound like it.

Billcoe wrote:Nice! I saw that van. This one?

Gotta love 3rd world Africa.

Drive that from Albany to New Paltz and see how it goes...

I'm offended by Emily's response, and if we want to cry more about it tomorrow, I'll explain.

I'll put money down that she's 24 or under, that is the new generation.

Tom Sherman wrote:I'm offended by Emily's response, and if we want to cry more about it tomorrow, I'll explain. I'll put money down that she's 24 or under, that is the new generation.

Hopefully you're kidding, but if not, I'll jump in and say that Emily's response was spot on (and, not that it matters a twit, but I am over 50).

Billcoe wrote:My advice to someone who had their belayer drop them ...twice, follows (skipped)

Mine would be shorter.

If you stepped twice on the same rake most likely you should stop playing around agricultural tools.

Tom Sherman wrote:I'm offended by Emily's response, and if we want to cry more about it tomorrow, I'll explain. I'll put money down that she's 24 or under, that is the new generation.

I think she's one of those people that can't take a joke, even if she knows it's a joke. If you're reading this Emily, please learn to laugh, it will make the shitshow that is life much more tolerable.

eli poss wrote: I think she's one of those people that can't take a joke, even if she knows it's a joke. If you're reading this Emily, please learn to laugh, it will make the shitshow that is life much more tolerable.

You're just annoyed because she called you out for saying something ignorant a while back.

It is possible that Bill was just trying to illustrate what can happen when hormones let you dictate who belays you, and since he is a male obviously it'll be through a males perspective. Although I never read this unedited version Em is talking about, that does sound a little creepy.