How do you set up your anchors?

I'll pack the camera tomorrow.

John Byrnes wrote: BTW, the forthcoming UIAA guidelines will require a 50 year lifespan for fixed hardware.

By the time they come out with anything the 50 years will be well gone!

Jim Titt wrote: By the time they come out with anything the 50 years will be well gone!

That's what I keep telling Alan!

However, I have a back-door plan that's still in the bud. We'll see how it turns out.

3/8" dia. Plated 5 part Rawl Bolts and plated Fixe hangers with 5/16" quick-links and 5 link Home Depot chain

Julie photographed this Saturday as she cleaned and threaded the chains.

This anchor set was installed a little over 2 years ago, on limestone obviously, in an area about 9000 ft. where the annual rainfall is maybe 13" max.

This is pretty typical rust pattern around here (Las Vegas NV area) unless the bolts sit in area which pools water or snow. 3/8" Proof coil chain

The plating on the hangers and quick links shows some oxidation but the chain links have a rust coating.

I'll try to get some photos of other anchor set ups next time out

close up of the same anchor as Julie is setting up for the thread

Right side links in close up. Original draws, Julies PAS and lowest carabiner she has tied off and clipped the rope prior to threading

Thomas Beck wrote: Julie photographed this Saturday as she cleaned and threaded the chains. This anchor set was installed a little over 2 years ago, on limestone obviously, in an area about 9000 ft. where the annual rainfall is maybe 13" max. This is pretty typical rust pattern around here (Las Vegas NV area) unless the bolts sit in area which pools water or snow. 3/8" Proof coil chain The plating on the hangers and quick links shows some oxidation but the chain links have a rust coating. I'll try to get some photos of other anchor set ups next time out

Clearly the bolts/hanger/quicklinks are different metal than the chains. As I mentioned, "stainless" at Home Depot can be a complete misnomer. I'd say those are just mild, low-carbon steel chains and are rusting in a predictable manner.

Other thoughts:

1) at 9K elevation expect evening condensation to be a factor.
2) I'd trust those chains until the rust has obviously thinned and weakened them.

Cosmetic damage nothing more IMO

Great thread! Thanks 20kN for sharing some Hawaiian climbing culture.

Here's a before/after shot of an anchor set, recently replaced by the Salt Lake Climbers Alliance/Wasatch Anchor Replacement Initiative(WARI), at the Division wall in American Fork canyon. Climbtech 316 SS Wave bolts, 316 SS 8mm Camp quicklinks, and 3/8" high test, plated chain painted with a self-etching primer:

Baghdad anchor set, Division Wall, American Fork canyon John Ross Photo

Division is a high traffic cliff adjacent a FS campground, so we have chosen to facilitate reasonable maintenance while minimizing visual impact. The SS quicklinks protect the Wave bolts from introduced corrosion, and the etching primer is an effective way to paint the plated chain. (Spending a bit more on high test chain helps address QC/QA concerns.) As many know, the limestone in AF is inherently shattered, so chain allows equalization at lesser angles from the appropriately spaced anchors.

John Byrnes wrote: Question for all.. I assume that just about everyone here would support the Access Fund, ASCA or some other national climbing organization setting up a one-stop shopping center for bolts, anchors, chains etc? By pooling our needs we could get contract rates on gear, competition between suppliers, etc. and greatly lower our costs. Thoughts?

I like the idea of doing this. However, you have to respect the innovations made by Fixe, Climbtech, etc. They would need to be part of the process so as not to undermine progress. Its clearly a tricky legal issue because only the specifically made climbing hardware is backed by their companies. ( ie, Powers isn't going to join in for climbing specific uses)

Your idea needs its own thread. There are certainly going to be more people putting up routes over time. I would love a clearing house to find the best deal on appropriate hardware because it'll keep me from compromising.

jonathan knight wrote:Great thread! Thanks 20kN for sharing some Hawaiian climbing culture. Here's a before/after shot of an anchor set, recently replaced by the Salt Lake Climbers Alliance/Wasatch Anchor Replacement Initiative(WARI), at the Division wall in American Fork canyon. Climbtech 316 SS Wave bolts, 316 SS 8mm Camp quicklinks, and 3/8" high test, plated chain painted with a self-etching primer: Division is a high traffic cliff adjacent a FS campground, so we have chosen to facilitate reasonable maintenance while minimizing visual impact. The SS quicklinks protect the Wave bolts from introduced corrosion, and the etching primer is an effective way to paint the plated chain. (Spending a bit more on high test chain helps address QC/QA concerns.) As many know, the limestone in AF is inherently shattered, so chain allows equalization at lesser angles from the appropriately spaced anchors.

Looks good. You re-used the holes. Glue-ins are best in less-than-perfect rock. Chains are replaceable.

But I'm curious, what do you mean by "introduced corrosion"?

Comment: The original chains do not look all that bad unless there's wear I can't see in the photo.

One thing that's good about mild/plated steel is that it's easy to see common rust and judge its strength. (It's not susceptible to SCC.) When those chains have rusted to about 1/2 their original diameter, or people just start feeling bad about them, then they are easy to replace via the quicklinks. Just my $.02.

tenesmus wrote: I like the idea of doing this. However, you have to respect the innovations made by Fixe, Climbtech, etc. They would need to be part of the process so as not to undermine progress. Its clearly a tricky legal issue because only the specifically made climbing hardware is backed by their companies. ( ie, Powers isn't going to join in for climbing specific uses) Your idea needs its own thread. There are certainly going to be more people putting up routes over time. I would love a clearing house to find the best deal on appropriate hardware because it'll keep me from compromising.

I've proposed this idea to the powers-that-be (well, one of them), and a second meeting is planned. It's still in its infancy...

The manufacturers will certainly be involved since their products will be used and funneled through a non-profit.

The main motivation is to try to mitigate cost to the developer so that it is not a deterrent to putting the right type of bolt (expansion/glue-in) made of the right material (304/316/Ti) in to a given environment (coastal, inland, limestone, alpine, desert, etc.)

Should I start a thread?

John Byrnes wrote: I've proposed this idea to the powers-that-be (well, one of them), and a second meeting is planned. It's still in its infancy... The manufacturers will certainly be involved since their products will be used and funneled through a non-profit. The main motivation is to try to mitigate cost to the developer so that it is not a deterrent to putting the right type of bolt (expansion/glue-in) made of the right material (304/316/Ti) in to a given environment (coastal, inland, limestone, alpine, desert, etc.) Should I start a thread?

Interesting. I don't represent a hardware company but isn't counter productive to their bottom line to offer a mass discount to the entire community.

gription wrote: Interesting. I don't represent a hardware company but isn't counter productive to their bottom line to offer a mass discount to the entire community.

To the manufacturer yes but to a climbing store retailer, not really.
The more routes there are in the area, the more people will climb, the more gear they buy. That's the theory. Plus it just a good thing to do.

The local stores buy the hardware in bulk and can even pool orders to get the best price. They sell it at no or extremely little markup. That's why I can buy hangers and bolts cheaper than if I went straight to the manufacturer. A lot cheaper.

rocknice2 wrote: To the manufacturer yes but to a climbing store retailer, not really. The more routes there are in the area, the more people will climb, the more gear they buy. That's the theory. Plus it just a good thing to do. The local stores buy the hardware in bulk and can even pool orders to get the best price. They sell it at no or extremely little markup. That's why I can buy hangers and bolts cheaper than if I went straight to the manufacturer. A lot cheaper.

Start a thread, if you didn't

Yes, start a new thread for the nonprofit clearinghouse.

I'd love to see better standards, best practices, and just all around resources about intelligently bolting/rebolting/fixed anchors. I think it would make the right gear much easier to buy and research - I had hoped that the ASCA would spearhead that, but the education section on that site is awfully sparse.

I hate getting to the top of routes and seeing chain i wouldn't use for a swingset, and i'm sure much of that is due to expense and ignorance. I know I made mistakes on my earliest routes, and i'm neither cheap nor lazy about research. It just isn't easy to sort through folklore, anecdotes, and the rest of the conflicting information out there.

Andrew Gram wrote: I had hoped that the ASCA would spearhead that, but the education section on that site is awfully sparse.

Fixe has lots of great instructional videos

gription wrote: Interesting. I don't represent a hardware company but isn't counter productive to their bottom line to offer a mass discount to the entire community.

Geez gription, they didn't teach basic economics in your high school?

Never worked in Procurement? Never heard that when volumes go up, prices come down? Never heard that maintaining volume over a narrower product-line increases profits? Don't understand capitalization? How about competitive bidding and contract pricing?

Oh well... go look it up.

John Byrnes wrote: Looks good. You re-used the holes. Glue-ins are best in less-than-perfect rock. Chains are replaceable. But I'm curious, what do you mean by "introduced corrosion"? Comment: The original chains do not look all that bad unless there's wear I can't see in the photo. One thing that's good about mild/plated steel is that it's easy to see common rust and judge its strength. (It's not susceptible to SCC.) When those chains have rusted to about 1/2 their original diameter, or people just start feeling bad about them, then they are easy to replace via the quicklinks. Just my $.02.

Thanks for the feedback John. As for the "introduced corrosion" I was referring possible corrosion on the surface of the Wave bolt such as what you can introduce by installing them with a steel hammer. In order to realize a long-term installation, I think it's best to not have plated links in contact with the Wave bolt.

Andrew Gram wrote:Yes, start a new thread for the nonprofit clearinghouse. I'd love to see better standards, best practices, and just all around resources about intelligently bolting/rebolting/fixed anchors. I think it would make the right gear much easier to buy and research - I had hoped that the ASCA would spearhead that, but the education section on that site is awfully sparse. I hate getting to the top of routes and seeing chain i wouldn't use for a swingset, and i'm sure much of that is due to expense and ignorance. I know I made mistakes on my earliest routes, and i'm neither cheap nor lazy about research. It just isn't easy to sort through folklore, anecdotes, and the rest of the conflicting information out there.

DONE.

John Byrnes wrote: One thing that's good about mild/plated steel is that it's easy to see common rust and judge its strength. (It's not susceptible to SCC.) When those chains have rusted to about 1/2 their original diameter, or people just start feeling bad about them, then they are easy to replace via the quicklinks. Just my $.02.

From this, do I take it correctly that you consider it to be reasonable-to-good anchor-creation practice to do exactly this: good quality for your area (SS or Ti) bolts, with mild/plated steel quick-links & chain for wear-reduction, with the expectation that these will be replaced?

David Gibbs wrote: From this, do I take it correctly that you consider it to be reasonable-to-good anchor-creation practice to do exactly this: good quality for your area (SS or Ti) bolts, with mild/plated steel quick-links & chain for wear-reduction, with the expectation that these will be replaced?

sounds good to me, but it really depends on the area and even on the route (for example, I can think of a climb where we have been using plated quicklinks to lower off because it gets worn long before it gets rusted)

if you're really worried go with SS/Ti quicklink connecting chains to hanger.

Also, I have a question:
If a hanger is slightly rusted but only where the quicklink contacts the hanger, is it safe to assume galvanic corrosion? I know it's hard to say without at least a picture but I figured it would be better to ask than to assume.