Belaying Second in Guide mode - right or left?

rgold wrote:And the modern harness belay leaves the belayer completely out of the equation just as the direct autoblock belay does.

you and i have different ideas of a harness belay then. my idea of a harness belay is that I am belaying off my belay loop and I a small amount of slack in my tie-in (if possible) so that a lot, if not all, of the force from the second is transmitted to me rather than the anchor.

To my understanding, the belayer is very much a part of the equation unlike a direct belay. Do you belay off your harness differently or am I just wrong about this.

GabeO wrote: I've found that there are a ton of situations where belaying off my harness is far and away the best method of bringing up the second. And I say that as someone who regularly belays off the anchor, or (less frequently) redirects off the anchor. All three methods of bringing up a second are vastly superior in certain situations, and I can't imagine abandoning any of them, as it seems many here have done.

This statement is right on the money. The most suitable belay method varies based on the situation, and to say one is intrisically better or worse in all situations is foolish. This applies to both the "always autoblock" noobs, and the "always belay off the harness" old men. The more tricks you have in your bag, the better able you are to adapt to each and every circumstance.

If I'm at a hanging belay on a bomber anchor, I will almost always use an autoblock belay off of the anchor, mostly for comfort/ergonomic reasons. When belaying on a blocky ledge with a quick-and-dirty alpine anchor, I will belay off my harness and never weight the anchor (even if the second falls). For in-between circumstances, I decide based on the stance, the anchor, the way the rope is running, the nature of the preceding pitch, and what I ate for breakfast.

The best belay is the appropriate method, carefully and skillfully applied. Skillful execution of the inappropriate method, or poor exceution of the right method, will both produce an inefficient, unpleasant, or even unsafe belay. The more methods you have in your quiver, the better chance you have of doing it right.

Variably, I will:
Belay off of my harness with an ATC
Belay off the anchor with an autoblock
Belay off my harness with a gri-gri
Belay off the anchor With a gri-gri
Redirect
Hip belay
Simulclimb
Simulclimb with a tiblock or micro-trax backup
Terrain belay
Munter off the anchor
And more...

You should know how and when to apply each, although some will be useful more often than others...

rob.calm wrote:Bearbreeder: thanks for the old movies of belaying around the waist. Nostalgia for me. That's exactly how I was taught to belay. In regards to shark picture. Why even bother belaying when climbing on junk like that? Yer gonna die no matter what. r.c

Because theres several pitches of this kind of easy lazay climbing above ... (Yeah i dunno wtf my partner did with that sling either)



Unfortunately the canadian rockies usually has shark infestested belays

Not to mention you might get bitten by a hungray shark when pulling on dat "jug"

In regards to "back problems" ... Taking repeated whippers especially harder catches can aggravate em ... Doubtful belaying off the harness will so long as it fits properly

Its a moot point anyways since you can always belay off the rope loop (no yos finish) like dem brits do

;)

JCM wrote:Variably, I will: Belay off of my harness with an ATC Belay off the anchor with an autoblock Belay off my harness with a gri-gri Belay off the anchor With a gri-gri Redirect Hip belay Simulclimb Simulclimb with a tiblock or micro-trax backup Terrain belay Munter off the anchor And more... You should know how and when to apply each, although some will be useful more often than others...

what is a terrain belay? i've never heard that term before

like a hip belay, only bigger...

eli poss wrote: what is a terrain belay? i've never heard that term before

Wrap the rope around a rock. Need to know when it is appropriate, but it works well and is darn quick to set up.

eli poss wrote: you and i have different ideas of a harness belay then. my idea of a harness belay is that I am belaying off my belay loop and I a small amount of slack in my tie-in (if possible) so that a lot, if not all, of the force from the second is transmitted to me rather than the anchor. To my understanding, the belayer is very much a part of the equation unlike a direct belay. Do you belay off your harness differently or am I just wrong about this.

Sigh. I can't count how many times and how many places I've described this now, most recently on page 3 of this very thread. Not to mention all the other descriptions, by other people, going at least back to Chris Harmston's posts on the old rec.climbing. Oh well, to quote my most recent self from four pages ago,

I think the concluding words should be about the modern harness belay, which isn’t really a harness belay at all and is, rather, another form of belaying off the anchor. In the modern form, the climber’s tie-in to the anchor is tight and the belay device is clipped to the rope tie-in loop rather than the harness belay loop. The effect of this is that belay loads go straight to the anchor via the belayer’s tie-in, so there are no loads to the belayer’s body or pinching from a harness subjected to opposing loads. The other advantages of the classical harness belay remain: sensitivity to the climber’s motions, the ability to safely and easily give slack for climbing down, better ability to keep up with climbers moving fast, and safe and efficient lowering if it is required. I might add that belaying two seconds simultaneously works just fine.

Bearbreeder called this "belaying off the rope loop like dem brits do." Here's a link for that perspective: ukclimbing.com/articles/pag…

Stupid question spun totally out of control.

Bearbreeder's old PATC videos brought back memories---I've held twenty or so near factor-2 falls of a 180 lb weight with a hip belay. That practice paid off, because I subsequently had to hold a real factor 2 fall with a hip belay and, many years later, something around factor 1.7 with an ATC. Nowadays, many manufacturer's instructions suggest that it isn't possible to hold a factor 2 fall with their devices.

Anyway, some folks are still practicing holding big falls. Here's a modern version of the PATC videos.

youtube.com/watch?v=jZTZENu…

youtube.com/watch?v=tYZ4Hg9…

youtube.com/watch?v=Xj90Q13…

youtube.com/watch?v=JjjBmOt…

youtube.com/watch?v=agjFm1Y…

rgold wrote:Bearbreeder's old PATC videos brought back memories---I've held twenty or so near factor-2 falls of a 180 lb weight with a hip belay. That practice paid off, because I subsequently had to hold a real factor 2 fall with a hip belay and, many years later, something around factor 1.7 with an ATC. Nowadays, many manufacturer's instructions suggest that it isn't possible to hold a factor 2 fall with their devices. Anyway, some folks are still practicing holding big falls. Here's a modern version of the PATC videos. youtube.com/watch?v=jZTZENu… youtube.com/watch?v=tYZ4Hg9… youtube.com/watch?v=Xj90Q13… youtube.com/watch?v=JjjBmOt… youtube.com/watch?v=agjFm1Y…

Cool videos. A rare look into reall FF2s. Anyway, while they successfuly caught the falls, there are still senarios where catching an FF2 is never going to happen with an ATC. I can give an example. Acually, it's the only example I can provide on an FF2. In 13 years of climbing, I have witnessed exactly one FF2 and it was in Zion on a bigwall. A friend was leading an aid pitch over a ledge. The belayer was standing on the ledge and belaying him as one would standing on the ground.

The climber, about 20' out, fell and ripped the entire pitch back to the belay. Fortunately he missed the ledge but since there was no longer any gear clipped between him and the belayer, he ripped the belayer right off the ledge and over the side. The belayer's belay arm was pinched between the rock and the rope, causing serious burns on the belayer's arms. If the belayer was not using a GriGri, I strongly doubt the belayer would have been able to stop the fall. The rope made it physically impossible as the belayer's arm was pinned out of position.

One of the things we really don't know is how some of the other assisted locking devices would perform in a FF2 fall. Jim Titt's tests do not give one reason for optimism.

do you happen to have a link for the the test results? i'm curious because my belay device of choice is usually the alpine smart. i've considered, though, using a munter off the anchor in situations where a factor-two fall may be likely and not preventable.

Eli, the thread with all Jim's graphs is on MP at mountainproject.com/v/edelr….

There's a lot of static though; you'll need some fortitude to get past the noise.

Take this post as a question, a clarification and a rant.

I want to understand this because I must be missing something. Lets not discuss the quality of the smooth belay in guide mode, lets focus on SAFETY of belying in guide mode.

A plate device in guide mode is suppose to lock up and I have never heard of an incident of a plate device not locking the rope in guide mode. I do have a habit of tying backup knots once in a while when belaying guide mode off the anchors. And I always tie backup before using a sling to lower a climber on a loaded atc guide.

Manufacturer videos and instructions clearly show not assisting an ATC guide in auto-locking and letting the device catch the fall all by itself...

Some of you are claiming ATC in GUIDE MODE is not safe! I genuinely want to know HOW is it NOT safe? Folks are saying to keep the hand on the brake strand of the rope at all times…. And I want to understand this. When the rope leading from climber is pulled, it presses down on the “brake hand” rope and wedges the rope between the teeth of the ATC and the climber rope. Holding it in place and locking the device so to speak. THE ONLY WAY you can back up the device being used in guide mode and the only way keeping your hand on the brake strand will do any good is if should the rope start slipping or guide mode not catching the rope, you must BRAKE the fall by bringing the brake hand rope behind the device (think regular belay with atc from the ground)?

There's no other reason to keep your hand on the brake strand as the only possible benefit to this would be to use a standard " atc brake " technique by bringing the rope behind the atc.
Is there another way I am not seeing or not understanding of how to backup a guide mode plate style device?

And I am curious as to how many of you who belay in guide mode keep your hand on the brake strand in anticipation of it failing and what's your strategy to back up the device?

My understanding is that it's perfectly safe and acceptable to only have the hand on the brake strand when pulling up slack.

Ready to be humbled by your knowledge people of MP.

PS: NO, the guide mode is not substitute for proper training and please don't misinterpret what I say in a way of me having full confidence in all gear, safety is first and redundancy is part of the equation.

I'd say if you're reading "not safe," then you aren't reading attentively. In fact, what does "safe" and "not safe" mean in the context of climbing practice? In some sense, nothing is safe, since climbing has risks that can be minimized but not eliminated.

Getting back to guide plates, they have aspects that need to be understood, else bad things can happen. Lowering can be a problem, and there have been lowering accidents because the belayer didn't understand how to handle the process. The plates themselves can fail to work, and this can happen in three ways. One is that they are used for a route that traverses in to the belay; a lateral load on the plate will not lock the rope. A second is that the plate can bump into obstructions that keep it from orienting properly or that force it into a releasing orientation. The third is that if slack builds up and the plate is required to hold, essentially, a leader fall, then (at least in testing) the strands can, under pressure, swap positions in the slot. One result is that the plate jams and can't be unlocked, and a worse result is that the plate loses its braking ability. The potential for the strands switching positions is higher with thinner ropes.

Some of these outcomes are unlikely yet possible. All of them can be addressed by knowledgeable and attentive belaying, which includes either not using the plate or repositioning it in certain circumstances, and not allowing too much slack to accumulate in the rope to the second even though one might be doing other things besides tending the belay.

So are the plates unsafe? I think it is fair to say that the plates present more opportunities for safety lapses than, say, a modern harness belay with an assisted-braking device. Whether those opportunities remain hypothetical or become actual liabilities depends, as almost everything in climbing does, on the pilot.

I read this to page 3 or 4 .... Great discussion.

All of us can agree, guide mode has the downside of being one-direction only. So as healy has said, if your follower needs slack to downclimb a bit, or --- if they take a fall and swing over to some kind of different hanging spot, and there is no way for them to climb up from there (and can't swing back over), You and your follower may be fu&ed. This can be dangerous and stupid. You have to be REAL good to unlock a weighted ATC in guide mode. In fact this is practically not even advisable for your average weekend rock climber.

Healy's also right that belaying off the body is becoming a lost art. I have personally forgotten how to do it without getting pulled into the damn master point -- I have fallen into Guide Mode habit and have lost my versatility as a leader thereby.

On the flip side though- There is no reason you can't have "feel" and give someone a great belay in guide mode. It's super safe, convenient, and great for ergonomics. These are not entirely unimportant factors.

Russ Keane wrote: All of us can agree, guide mode has the downside of being one-direction only. So as healy has said, if your follower needs slack to downclimb a bit, or --- if they take a fall and swing over to some kind of different hanging spot, and there is no way for them to climb up from there (and can't swing back over), You and your follower may be fu&ed. This can be dangerous and stupid. You have to be REAL good to unlock a weighted ATC in guide mode. In fact this is practically not even advisable for your average weekend rock climber.

It really isn't actually that hard to pay out slack or lower a climber with a guide plate. It is slightly inconvenient, and takes a little more thought than lowering with a tube or a gri-gri, but not that much. This has all been discussed up-thread.

If I had a potential climbing partner that couldn't understand lowering with a guide plate, I would like be skeptical of their competence in a host of other situations also.

I use my ATC GUIDE all the time with my family if belaying or lowering from the top.

Belaying from the top in guide mode is obvious.

Lowering I use this method:
youtu.be/JoZ-5xr8LEM

This way the climber (sometimes my kids) never have to untie and are always on belay or break.

Used time and time again and I fail to see any faults yet.

keithconn wrote:I use my ATC GUIDE all the time with my family if belaying or lowering from the top. Belaying from the top in guide mode is obvious. Lowering I use this method: youtu.be/JoZ-5xr8LEM This way the climber (sometimes my kids) never have to untie and are always on belay or break. Used time and time again and I fail to see any faults yet.

That would be the "unweighted lower." Then, there is the weighted lower.

rgold wrote: can fail to work, and this can happen in three ways. One is that they are used for a route that traverses in to the belay; a lateral load on the plate will not lock the rope

This is not true. At least as a blanket statement. They lock just fine with a lateral load when used by someone that understands them and is very attentive. Keeping slack out of the system will keep the device orientated towards the load. You knew this though. Ensuring nothing can interfere with the devices proper orientation is critical. But you knew this too. And knowing when hands free is absolutely not ok is pretty damn important. You knew this too. But maybe not everyone out there does.

I covered traverses and party of three way up thread. Keenly aware!!

And I don't know why people think it is difficult to give a precise belay in guide. I've been doing this for 20 years. It's not hard if attentive and keeping one hand on the climber side to continue to feel what is going on. Giving slack is easy, too. The attentive part may be the only real problem.

Is the horse dead yet?