New bolts at Crow Hill

zeb engberg wrote:But headpointing dune without bolts deeply added to my experience. For me, the main challenge in climbing dune was confronting this mental component. As a 5.12+ trad-face climb, dune is entirely unique in New England. Keeping the bolts in place would make dune more accessible and restore Mallery's masterpiece, but we'd also be losing something very special in doing so.

I understand the sentiment. I have some climbs that are reasonably hard or spicy that I put up onsight or on the second or third go, but which I've led roped-solo so many times over the years for training each spring that I now know every millimeter of them to the point that once in a while I realize I've gotten so into the rhythm I've skipped a piece or two along the way.

And again, I'm as rabidly anti-bolt as they come, but still feel it would most unfortunate if headpointing started having any significant role in determining the outcome of what happened with pro used for an FA. In the end I just see a ton of equivalency in by deriving confidence from drilling a line with either bolts or reps. Impressive displays of control, no doubt, but that shouldn't be a standard setting activity from where I sit.

Luc wrote: it's a mass of gym/sport climbers and urbanites.

It's ironic how quick people are to dismiss someone who learned to climb in a gym. Many of climbers out there today who are pushing standards in the alpine, hard trad, and free soloing disciplines grew up climbing in a gym.

will ar wrote: It's ironic how quick people are to dismiss someone who learned to climb in a gym. Many of climbers out there today who are pushing standards in the alpine, hard trad, and free soloing disciplines grew up climbing in a gym.

Assuming and misunderstanding what I wrote, I DON'T LIKE CROWDS, especially the ones that think they can force the outdoors into a climbing gym.

Edit:
Yes Zeb, really good writing, pretty much nails it.

Very good post, Dr. Zeb. Thanks for taking the time and putting in the effort. Great to hear from you about Dune again. What a proud lead!

Mark, TomN can probably tell you more about the gear Barry and Mark used during their leads of Dune. He happened to mention Dune (total coincidence) the last time we climbed together.

Healyje wrote: Well, clipping pitons and crappy gear is a trad climb. Pre-place gear and it's just sport route.

Good thing the "trad" police is here. *s*
Seriously though, J Healy does a lot of good things for the climbing community....Beacon Rock,WA in particular.
I remember checking out the peregrines through his binoculars at the boat marina during the closure. I climbed Young Warriors with him when I was first learning to place pro. Big ups to Joe for all that he does.

Lucas79 wrote: Good thing the "trad" police is here. *s* Seriously though, J Healy does a lot of good things for the climbing community....Beacon Rock,WA in particular. I remember checking out the peregrines through his binoculars at the boat marina during the closure. I climbed Young Warriors with him when I was first learning to place pro. Big ups to Joe for all that he does.

Glad you enjoyed it. But it's not a matter of 'policing' trad - it's a simple matter of what trad has alway been, and that includes ratty pins, shit gear and yes, even bolts have always been a part of it - but pre-placed pro never has. Pre-placing pro, like dogging up trad lines, is more the realm of crossover sprad climbing. You're using gear, but it sure as hell isn't trad.

And it's somewhat unfortunate that younger people have ended up with a boiled down and simple notion that it's strictly bolts or the lack of them that differentiate trad and sport. Nothing could be further from the truth. The initial [culture] clash and conflict wasn't so much about bolts as it was about tactics - essentially coming down to the idea that you can pretty much dog, rep or drill your way up anything. And that diametrically opposed the old ideal of ground-up, clean, onsight [trad] FAs and the head and skills you have to develop to be able to put up climbs in that style. Bolting was viewed as a bummer, but that objection was secondary to the tactics involved.

I get the push and drive to redefine what trad climbing 'is', but it's misguided and comes at an enormous cost. But, if you don't aspire to and are never going to try to do a ground-up, clean, onsight FA, then no doubt the cost is negligible and the whole idea probably seems like an ancient fairytale.

there are verry damn few clean onsight FA's in the north east harder than 5.7 or so. the cracks are usually full of dirt, the rock is loose and covered in lichen and elephant ears. The usual tactic is to take on gear while tossing shit clear of the ropes and your partner. The first ascent is usually cleaning on the sharp end.

Why not just leave the bolt there, but paint it to match the color of the rock? That way everyone wins!

I can't believe no one thought of such an obvious, simple, win-win solution

Nick Goldsmith wrote:there are verry damn few clean onsight FA's in the north east harder than 5.7 or so. the cracks are usually full of dirt, the rock is loose and covered in lichen and elephant ears. The usual tactic is to take on gear while tossing shit clear of the ropes and your partner. The first ascent is usually cleaning on the sharp end.

Elephant ears! I always call it "potato chip lichen" but I think I like your name better!

I personally think that Zeb's post 'nails it' as far as Dune is concerned, though the larger questions still remain.

I must take exception with Healyje's comment that pre-placed gear was "never" part of trad climbing. Well, on pure ground up first ascents that is true, but historically on many of the classic climbs across the country such ground-up firsts relied to varying extent on aid and, despite the "remove all gear ethic" that was also prevalent at the time, many pitons and bolts remained in place, which were happily used by subsequent ascentionists whether on aid or free---all of which were 'trad' ascents because BITD there were no other options.

In the subsequent "yo-yo" period, leaders would alternate working the route--and the gear--higher up the climb, leaving the gear--and often the rope--in place for the next leader--sometimes for days. This, too, is part of the 'trad' heritage.

Well, enough keyboard combat for me today--I'm off climbing!!!!

Alan

Mark E Dixon wrote: I vote chop the bolts.

I'm too far away for my opinion to count, but I would like to recant this. In general the FFA should be respected and the bolts left in more or less the same spots originally placed.

Out of curiosity, what justifies reserving a crag exclusively for one type of climbing? It is public space after all.

Mark E Dixon wrote:Out of curiosity, what justifies reserving a crag exclusively for one type of climbing? It is public space after all.

Generally, it's the local community's choice, (and some land manager may have a say).

Same as some cliffs in Qc where the FA parties have ironed out first bolt stick clip heights, anchor configs and bolt/hanger types.

Mixing both types I find is fine, as long as mixed trad routes don't get turned into sport climbs.

Luc wrote: Mixing both types I find is fine, as long as mixed trad routes don't get turned into sport climbs.

And again, I'd point to Farley where this is status quo. Plenty of mixed lines, plenty of pure trad lines, and then a lot of sport. (sure a lot of the sport there could be 'protected' in some manner, but then you'd have nothing but a cliff of R/X lines that nobody would climb)

Someone should figure out a way to geologically cause cracks, or splits, into multi-hundred foot high pieces of granite. That technology would open up a ton of awesome trad lines.

T Roper wrote: All hail the "rabidly anti-bolt" guy (who owns a drill and places many bolts) with the most to say from 3000 miles away!

I do own a drill and have replaced a lot of bolted anchors, but in forty-one years of climbing I've place one protection bolt after my partner complained no one owned two #2 ball nuts.

Alan Rubin wrote:I must take exception with Healyje's comment that pre-placed gear was "never" part of trad climbing. Well, on pure ground up first ascents that is true, but historically on many of the classic climbs across the country such ground-up firsts relied to varying extent on aid and, despite the "remove all gear ethic" that was also prevalent at the time, many pitons and bolts remained in place, which were happily used by subsequent ascentionists whether on aid or free---all of which were 'trad' ascents because BITD there were no other options.

By "pre-placing gear" I was specifically talking about placing stoppers or cams on rappel, not fixed pins or bolt from previous aid ascents - the above has nothing to do with my comment and everything to do with the evolution of routes over time from aid to free.

Alan Rubin wrote:In the subsequent "yo-yo" period, leaders would alternate working the route--and the gear--higher up the climb, leaving the gear--and often the rope--in place for the next leader--sometimes for days. This, too, is part of the 'trad' heritage.

Now you're talking about the tactics of individuals and while that may have been common at some crags or even regions, there was no "yo-yo" period. I've certainly seen routes like Texas Hold'em/Lone Star in RR with a thousand feet of fixed line on them for weeks, but all edge cases.

Russ Keane wrote:Someone should figure out a way to geologically cause cracks, or splits, into multi-hundred foot high pieces of granite. That technology would open up a ton of awesome trad lines.

I've long argued that folks should cement up those cracks splitting otherwise pristine walls, thereby opening up countless awesome sport lines. Kind of a crag maintenance obligation to prevent further fissuring.

I do own a drill and have replaced a lot of bolted anchors, but in forty-one years of climbing I've place one protection bolt after my partner complained no one owned to #2 ball nuts.
Now you're talking about the tactics of individuals and while that may have been common at some crags or even regions, there was no "yo-yo" period. I've certainly seen routes like Texas Hold'em/Lone Star in RR with a thousand feet of fixed line on them for weeks, but all edge cases.

@lone pro bolt you have placed, LOL. GOOD story. #2 Ball nut? Sketchy.
Altho any FA in yo-yo style would have preceded me, I believe they might be more often that we like to think. This one shocked me when I first read it -
mountainproject.com/v/airat…
And I heard of quite a few too at The Gunks.

Mark E Dixon wrote: I've long argued that folks should cement up those cracks splitting otherwise pristine walls, thereby opening up countless awesome sport lines. Kind of a crag maintenance obligation to prevent further fissuring.

My personal plan is to bolt a crack line and name the route "Breaking Trad."

yo , yo was the way it was done early eightys at least. it was a team effort. leader went as high as they could and got some gear in. Lower off and annother member of the party would tie in, climb back up to the high point and see if they could get the rope/ gear up higher on the route. I participated in this in Colorado in 86 and knew that was how things were done in the gunks and heard Red rocks as well. The damn wimpy sport climbers are the ones who ruined it by insisting that the rope had to be pulled after every attempt.

Nick Goldsmith wrote: The damn wimpy sport climbers are the ones who ruined it by insisting that the rope had to be pulled after every attempt.

Henry Barber deserves some credit for that, he was the first one doing it that I ever heard of. All the gear placed free, and if you fell you pulled the rope and clipped through.

He was also the first to actually free climb (barefoot) and onsight a 5.12a all-gear first ascent.

Shows you what "trad" really is.