New bolts at Crow Hill

Logic Soon, Logic, study your logic. :) Notice he said "should never be allowed to unless.." That doesn't preclude other conditionals. Silly rule though. I am spending my last available post of the day on this tidbit. Thank God. Now back to reorganizing.

Just climbing it without the fixed gear does not give anyone the right to chop anything. If however you have your pantys all in a bunch and you are bound and determined to chop something you damn well better climb it without the fixed gear you intend to chop.
Heck if we followed the stupid climbing rule that once a climb has been done in better style it must be done in that style rule we would all have to solo pretty much everything worth doing up to 5.11 or so....

Mark, Almost all our rules are silly;)

sara pax wrote:The question to the people who think bolts should be left or who are for bolting: Do you think it should reflect the original Mallery bolting, or should it be fully bolted? If some bolts were allowed on Dune would you push for more bolted routes at CH or would you stand with the "trad ethic" of the area?

I should think back to Mallery's free bolts.

Before the fantasy climbers coalition (I hope it materializes) issues its manifesto it might be nice to ascertain what the land owner/manager (state) has to say about it. Of course that would be all in how the proposed actions are described - "adding safety mechanisms" vs. "drilling holes in the rock".

sara pax wrote: I hardly see why what the state thinks at this point matters. There are already bolts, pitons, tat, chopped bolts, and who knows what in the rock. Care what the state thinks when you get there. You're not there. I was asking what you think.

You might care what the state thinks if they close Crow to climbing. Or maybe not.

Your 5 numbered points are accurate IMO. Your questions are just a synopsis about what the prior 11 pages are about. Obviously you'll get every possible answer. So what? This is past the point where an online forum will solve anything. I was trying to give some thoughts on how to proceed with the next step.

Sarah, I think a coalition of our peers is only way to come to consensus on these ethical arguments. We haven't reduced the chances of another bolting and subsequent chopping, and mountain project/insular conversations won't resolve that.

I respect the direction of rumney, farley and other areas have gone because they embrace a complete view of New England climbing. CH somehow has a stigma formed by a few zealots that only select routes will have important fixed gear and others will be "test prices"; an argument is founded on ego alone. I don't respect that view, and am confused how my local crag is being governed without discussion.

Jonathan Haggerty wrote:...important fixed gear...

Hmmm...that's a new one.

Is it inaccurate?

Jonathan Haggerty wrote:CH somehow has a stigma formed by a few zealots that only select routes will have important fixed gear and others will be "test prices"; an argument is founded on ego alone. I don't respect that view, and am confused how my local crag is being governed without discussion.

The question is: important to whom?

Important to sport climbers? Trad climbers? Aid climbers?

Look it's a trad venue and bottom line isn't going to turn into a sport crag and your statement elsewhere that "tradition and trad climbing are too connected at times..." is ridiculous - where do you think the 'trad' part comes from?

Sure, all fixed pro needs to be maintained over time - pins and bolts. Pins can be checked and reset and / or replaced. Ditto for bolts. But from the veiled language and verbiage of your posts so far on MP, one could easily surmise what you're really after is retrobolts. If that's not the case, then possibly you should consider clearer language.

Eric. getting the state involved is the worst possible scenario imaginable. The vast majority of climbing access issues have come about from grumpy climbers complaining to the state about other climbers bolting or chopping bolts. Some asshat tells the state how awfull bolts are and the next thing you know the place is closed.

Healy and I seem to agree that John mallory has the most legit say on what happens to the route?

Jonathan Haggerty wrote:I respect the direction of rumney, farley and other areas have gone because they embrace a complete view of New England climbing.

Rumney? a complete view of New England climbing??? that's the last spot I'd go climbing in the Northeast, it's a mass of gym/sport climbers and urbanites. Kids, Dogs, litter, crowds. Gimme Trad, cuts out the gumbies and the crowds.

I'm sorry, just my opinion,

I have no say what happens at CH, just that I wish areas can remain as natural as possible to allow future generations to be able to climb routes the same way previous generations have without having mental crutches spread out all over the place to accommodate the lowest common denominator.

Luc wrote: a mass of gym/sport climbers and urbanites. Kids, Dogs, litter, crowds. Gimme Trad, cuts out the gumbies and the crowds. I'm sorry, just my opinion

You know, saying "just my opinion, sorry" isn't an excuse for saying stupid and insulting things. How terrible that people learned this sport in a gym, convenient to their homes. How awful it is that people leave the city on the weekends to climb in the mountains, and teach their kids to enjoy the sport. I'm so sorry that the rest of us cause you any inconvenience, especially the "gumbies" who don't climb as hard as you.

And since you want us to climb in the same manner as previous generations, I assume you're cool if I pound some pitons in?

Luc wrote: Rumney? a complete view of New England climbing??? that's the last spot I'd go climbing in the Northeast, it's a mass of gym/sport climbers and urbanites. Kids, Dogs, litter, crowds. Gimme Trad, cuts out the gumbies and the crowds. I'm sorry, just my opinion, I have no say what happens at CH, just that I wish areas can remain as natural as possible to allow future generations to be able to climb routes the same way previous generations have without having mental crutches spread out all over the place to accommodate the lowest common denominator.

You'll find just as many... "gym/sport climbers and urbanites. Kids, Dogs, litter, crowds." at the Gunks doing trad. It has little to do with the type of climbing.

M Sprague wrote:What are John Mallery's thoughts on it? He did the FA didn't he?...

Didn't he die in the Cordillera Blanca back in the 1980s or do I have a different guy?

Wrong guy, for sure. Can't even place whom you are thinking of. John Mallery is alive and well, though apparantly not climbing these days nor active on MP.

zswan wrote: You know, saying "just my opinion, sorry" isn't an excuse for saying stupid and insulting things. How terrible that people learned this sport in a gym, convenient to their homes. How awful it is that people leave the city on the weekends to climb in the mountains, and teach their kids to enjoy the sport. I'm so sorry that the rest of us cause you any inconvenience, especially the "gumbies" who don't climb as hard as you. And since you want us to climb in the same manner as previous generations, I assume you're cool if I pound some pitons in?

zing! zing! zing!!!!
yeah seriously, this whole hate on the new generation of climbers thing is getting a little out of hand, please hop off that bandwagon.

Brian wrote: Didn't he die in the Cordillera Blanca back in the 1980s or do I have a different guy?

You are probably confusing him with Chris Hassig, another MIT climber and prolific first ascentionist. He was one of the pioneers of Rumney.
tech.mit.edu/V105/N29/obit.…

Yeah, thought I'd get flak for that.
It's people's choice's, one of the main reasons I climb is to avoid crowds and get away. I understand many people enjoy the super social side of climbing and I respect their choice.
And no, I'm not a hard climber but I sure as hell get irritated when I see a bolt within a couple feet of a crack that's easy to protect with an excuse that "most" routes are sport on the cliff.

But this is all off topic so nevermind my outbursts or my agoraphobia.