The Cost of Climbing Gear

Moritz B. wrote: I have belayed with it and wasn't stoke how you feed out rope fast. You really have to hold your hand weirdly to prevent it from locking.

Yes, and you feather that part either. It's takes lots of force to disengage if the device locks too. What size rope you use?

Bill Kirby wrote: Yes, and you feather that part either. It's takes lots of force to disengage if the device locks too. What size rope you use?

I´ve used it with a variety of ropes. 8.9, 9.2 and 9.5.

Moritz B. wrote: I´ve used it with a variety of ropes. 8.9, 9.2 and 9.5.

Sorry Moritz, I met to say you can't feather the button you use to feed slack fast.

Man, if you can't get that Matik to work well with a 8.9 then Camp needs to go back to the drawing board. The design is a great idea but the end product kinda sucks.

jason.cre wrote: Im sure that Petzls experience of moving manufacturing to china (unauthorized stuff that was absolutely indistinguishable but far inferior quality/failing strengths) had a lot to do with it as well.

Those are separate issues...they are making look-alikes, not copying the actual manufacturing process. I'm not even sure those Petzl products being counterfeited were ever manufactured in China. Some CAMP hardware are, however.

kennoyce wrote: Not with the current 3-d printing technology. Maybe someday, but we're still at least a good 10 years away from being there.

Not true, but it would be $300-$400

reboot wrote: Those are separate issues...they are making look-alikes, not copying the actual manufacturing process. I'm not even sure those Petzl products being counterfeited were ever manufactured in China. Some CAMP hardware are, however.

They clearly copied the manufacturing process to a very high degree. Maybe it didnt have anything to do with the move to China but they seemed to coincide quite conveniently.

jason.cre wrote: They clearly copied the manufacturing process to a very high degree.

To me that would mean being able to make functional (not visual) copies (i.e., Made in China Camalots), which these things obviously aren't (they don't come close to meeting the strength requirements).

There's no doubt IP is at risk when you move your manufacturing to another country, but that usually results in a competitor building something functional the same. Counterfeits are, well, just counterfeits.

Mike Brady wrote: Not true, but it would be $300-$400

Yes it is true, you could 3-d print all the parts for the device, however, due to the current 3-d printing technology the parts would be highly anisotropic and would not meet the required strength in certain orientations. The technology just isn't there yet. Also, that quoted price would only be for the printing and doesn't include non-destructive inspection or testing which would probably end up doubling the price.

I feel that DLMS would be up to handling the loads that a gri-gri takes, no matter what kind of load is being put on it. Especially since most of the loads are going to be mostly in tensile.

Definitely not for production purposes.

20 kN wrote:It seems like some manufacturers raise the price of an item simply because it's the newest, latest, greatest thing and therefore should be more expensive than the older version.

Last I checked that's one of the main principles of consumer economics - that's what also drives innovation. If there was no incentive to charge premium, there would be no investment in R&D...

doligo wrote: Last I checked that's one of the main principles of consumer economics - that's what also drives innovation. If there was no incentive to charge premium, there would be no investment in R&D...

This thread is about hurt feelz, your logic has no place here.

I recently purchased a Matik because I am in the process of starting a climbing gym and was intrigued by the added features that could increase safety and longevity of gear. The only aspect I wasn't pleased with was the anti-panic feature, which basically ruined the experience for me. Below is what I sent to CAMP.

"Hi CAMP,

As an engineer and climber who wants to start a climbing gym. I was intrigued by your Matik belay device. I love the idea of a softer catch, more evenly distributed breaking pressure on the rope, steel for longevity, lowering in a single plane (not twisted over the side) and an anti-panic mode.

I recently bought one and was eager to try it out. I quickly found out that the reviews I had read were correct in that it is miserable to use on thicker ropes, or where the climber is light. The anti-panic function in my opinion is more dangerous than it is helpful. My wife was almost stuck at the top of a route that had a thick rope. Granted, when I went to a gym that had the thinnest ropes I've seen in a gym it worked better; however, it still locked up at surprising times when I don't think it was necessary. I think the anti-panic overcomplicates things. The lowering if the anti-panic DOES NOT kick in is very smooth and easier to control than the grigri. This in itself makes it safer than the grigri.

My conclusion is that this would be a better brake assisted device than the grigri if it did not have the anti-panic function. I hope you will come out with a pro-version like you have in the druid that doesn't have the anti-panic and I will be eager to try it out and potentially use them exclusively in the gym that I am working towards. I would choose it over the grigri because of the longevity it will have itself with the steel parts, the longevity it creates on the ropes, and the smoother and more intuitive lowering that is safer than a grigri.

Thanks, and I hope you find this helpful"

I hope this isn't too long for you all. But those are my insights.

The definitive answer.

^that is the most retarded thing I've ever read. I love the math skills involved where a cam only has $1 worth of material in it and therefore is overpriced. Smdh. First of all manufacturers don't pay scrap metal prices. Second of all they start with way more material that is paid for but then removed by the manufacturing process. Oh, and it costs something to actually manufacture the product.

Oh and "if you have to use climbing shoes to send you need to go back to the gym and train harder". Smh

zekem wrote:^that is the most retarded thing I've ever read. I love the math skills involved where a cam only has $1 worth of material in it and therefore is overpriced. Smdh. First of all manufacturers don't pay scrap metal prices. Second of all they start with way more material that is paid for but then removed by the manufacturing process. Oh, and it costs something to actually manufacture the product. Oh and "if you have to use climbing shoes to send you need to go back to the gym and train harder". Smh

And Wesley trolls another and another..

Go back and read some of other posts slick. He got me too.

Now you're talking Air Jordan prices

Bill, thanks for the heads up. I was wondering if someone could really be that ignorant. Sad thing is there probably are people who feel that way. Glad to find that was satire, though. My faith in humanity is restored.

The principle reason that manufacturing has not returned to the States is that we all go to used to low prices of goods.

Tell you what folks: if you want good, durable stuff, made in the USA, then get used to paying for the entire cost of the product, r&d, assembly, logistics, infrastructure, taxes, accounting, advertising, etc., not just the materials.

Brian Scoggins wrote:The principle reason that manufacturing has not returned to the States is that we all go to used to low prices of goods. Tell you what folks: if you want good, durable stuff, made in the USA, then get used to paying for the entire cost of the product, r&d, assembly, logistics, infrastructure, taxes, accounting, advertising, etc., not just the materials.

Agreed. Get used to buying less and using it up more. I bought Limmers (small company in Vermont) for my first season of trail work, and while they cost twice what a good boot at REI will run you, I also had a nearly new pair of boots left after 400 miles just needing a resole, whereas everyone else on my crew with modern lightweight boots needed new ones. However, Limmers are nowhere near lightweight, and for that, durability is the trade off. I loved the Limmers and how well they were constructed, but they were about 5 lbs for the pair!

And on that note, I dont see climbing gear as all that expensive. $1500 would get you a solid rack and everything else, right? Try backpacking. You could spend that much just on pack, boots, tent and sleeping bag. None of that stuff is even rated to save your life! Imagine, $400 would get you five or six brand new BD cams.. or one Big Agnes tent.