New bolts at Crow Hill

In what way is trad climbing a sport route better? It's contrived to get placements, start points and pulls you onto a 5.11.

As a trad route this is a 1 star line. As a top rope it's 3 stars. That quality is preserved by setting the line with bolts.

I don't see how there's a possible argument for "better" as trad...

Trad climbing any route is better because you are meeting the rock on its natural terms and dealing with it that way.

You can drill anything down to your own level. I love the little phrases you use to cover your tracks, " setting the line"...lol...which means rap bolting the shit out of something others have managed without.

If you have already top-roped it, what is so special about clipping a bunch of closely spaced bolts that it makes sense to erase something other more inspired people did?

I don't see as there is any argument that sport is better see?

Like I said earlier. Piton time. Any argument?

When trying to come to a consensus, you usually have to toss out the outliers, in this case the rabid antibolters and ones that want to bolt everything every five feet to "keep it safe" who are so attached to their opinion that they willfully ignore the facts and logic.

One aspect of John's bolts we have yet to broach; were they placed on rappel? In the same context, were any of the other fixed pro used during FA (incl bolts on Fool On a Hill) first placed on rappel?

I have placed bolts on my own routes Mark, does that make me a rabid anti-bolter?

I have left all eight retro-bolts that have been placed on my own routes in place as well.

Not every monkey gets to climb every tree.

I got a question that I don't mind asking since this threads gone bye bye. All the shit going on in ones head aside, wouldn't a route that's not bolted be physically easier than a route that is? My thinking is the person climbing the bolted route has to stop grab a draw off their harness, clip the bolt then clip the rope. The bolt free route takes less energy and you don't get as pumped cause there's no pro. So wouldn't a 5.11 that's bolted every 12 feet be harder to get clean than a 5.11 that has gear every 30 feet? How many of us have ran it out to the top of a pitch rather than stop to place gear and hang?.

I don't have a strong opinion on Dune, ethics, bolts or pitons. Just wondering what you guys think.

Yes Bill that's what makes the Bachar-Yeridan so popular...

Jonathan Haggerty wrote:In what way is trad climbing a sport route better?

If someone can do a reasonably protected, non-headpointed trad ascent of a sport route then it's a pretty good indicator it shouldn't be a sport route.

Jonathan Haggerty wrote:As a trad route this is a 1 star line. As a top rope it's 3 stars. That quality is preserved by setting the line with bolts. I don't see how there's a possible argument for "better" as trad...

'Better' is subjective no doubt.

Tom Stryker wrote:Yes Bill that's what makes the Bachar-Yeridan so popular...

Thanks Tom. I'll look that one up.

You have led it as a trad route Jonathan?

Jonathan Haggerty wrote:Like I said earlier. Piton time. Any argument?

Not if you hand place it.

Er, Bill, Tom is seriously pulling your leg. B-Y is a SERIOUS route.

But there is very little bothersome gear...

Tom Stryker wrote:I have placed bolts on my own routes Mark, does that make me a rabid anti-bolter? I have left all eight retro-bolts that have been placed on my own routes in place as well. Not every monkey gets to climb every tree.

If the glove doesn't fit..

Tom Stryker wrote:You have led it as a trad route Jonathan?

I've placed gear on TR. It's spaced unrealistically and isn't good when you do get it. It gets R for a reason.

It's just R? Not X, and you want to bolt it?

And you have TR'd it, and scoped the gear ?

I guess I don't get what grounds you feel you have for bolting.

"Spaced unrealistically " is a new one for sure..lol...

Let me get this argument straight: Chop all bolts that weren't used on the FA, except when the bolts used on the FA are offensive. Bolts can't be skipped or an angel dies. You need to climb this the same way an old man made me climb it because I got scared and you need to get scared. I was born first and I get to tell you what to do. Respect authority. Respect dogmatic ideology. Respect tradition.

However, tradition is not an argument in a logical conversation. That's the problem with arguing with zealots, as long as tradition is a basis for rational, logic will never be achieved.

Back to the nonsense boys.

So in your mind JQ we should all just bolt up everything we can't measure up too?

And you are aware that logic doesn't really play a role in the sport right?

S. Neoh wrote:Er, Bill, Tom is seriously pulling your leg. B-Y is a SERIOUS route.

Thanks.. Should've known I wouldn't be taken serious. Now that reply reminds me of some friends I listened to at breakfast today. They think they're so great because they're big players on Wall Street. They beat their chests and run their mouths non stop. Got all these strong opinions because of their success but.. The average person doesn't give a shite and has no idea what these jackasses are talking about. Reminds me of climbing ethics.