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New bolts at Crow Hill

Jonathan Haggerty · · West Acton, MA · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 195

I agree Tom. I don't want to speak for the community. I however don't want the stagnation to continue. There needs to be an outlet for this discussion.

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0

Mark and Ed (and everyone else),

I'm not arguing (anymore) on the grounds that Dune in particular and Crow in general have been/should be bolt free. To many counter examples + the fact that the FFA was with bolts. Like any good defense attorney, Al has listed a number of precedents. What I am now arguing is that because Dune has now been done in a better style that should remain in condition to support that. There are many precedents that support that - from chopping Maestris (I can't spell - you know the Mallory of Patagonia?) bolts on Cerro Torre to Trotter's chopping on the Path.

It's another traditional rule that once things get done in better style that its bad form to revert to worse - even if the FA was done that way. At least if you want to do it in a lesser style (aid the Nose) do so in a manner (clean) that doesn't impact the ability of others to do it in a better style. AKA - you can preplace (and subsequently) remove) trad gear on Dune that is as good as bolts. You can not do a trad on-sight with the bolts in place.

But my most fundamental anti bolt argument is that 5.12 sport routes are a dime a dozen (sorry Ed and Marc) but established trad routes? Not so much.

However I'm happy to let Crow remain the wild west.

Doug Meneke · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 10

For all of you that think "I led it first, so don't touch it..."

IT'S NOT YOUR ROCK! (though "I" would RESPECTFULLY ask your permission, and of course, ignore it if I disagreed)

For all of you that think "I can add a bolt to make it safer..."

IT'S NOT YOUR ROCK!

For all of you that think "I can chop it because it's not right..."

IT'S NOT YOUR ROCK!

For all of you "holier-than-thou-even-tho-I-don't/do-believe-in-God (or anything else)..."

IT'S NOT YOUR ROCK!!!

For all of you "tolerant" folks, wherever you are...that say "WE TOLERATE EVERYONE, AND YOU DON'T, SO YOU MUST LEAVE/DIE..."

Hmmm...

The irony is THICK in here.

I saw a post about "I (not me) was passed by a NH state trooper with 2 people handcuffed in the back seat, with a license plate that read LIVE FREE OR DIE!!!"

Hmmm...

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

I think your argument is only hanging by its fingernails, Eric, lol, And even with your strength I think it is doomed. Maestri's route is a pretty extreme example for precedent and even that was very controversial. On the flip side, I think most would disagree with the principle of chopping an FA just because somebody skipped the bolts later unless there was an extreme issue with the original bolting (like bolting up a perfect handcrack or something) I don't know that many would agree that the trad pro on an r/x route is as good as if it had its original bolts.

Bill Shubert · · Lexington, MA · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 55
Eric Engberg wrote:What I am now arguing is that because Dune has now been done in a better style that should remain in condition to support that.
Wait, is "better style" a code word for "more dangerous"? Or is it a code word for "fewer bolts"? If doing it without bolts involves a risk of groundfall, would that still be "better"? If I free solo a climb, is that "better style" than using trad gear, and then do I have the right to put epoxy in the crack where those cowardly trad climbers have been placing their cams?

Just trying to figure out how what you mean here, I'll never be good enough to climb Dune under any circumstances so to me whether the bolts are there or not doesn't matter much.
javd von dauber · · East Brookfield MA · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 91
Doug Meneke wrote:IT'S NOT YOUR ROCK!.
Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
Bill Shubert wrote: Wait, is "better style" a code word for "more dangerous"? Or is it a code word for "fewer bolts"? If doing it without bolts involves a risk of groundfall, would that still be "better"? If I free solo a climb, is that "better style" than using trad gear, and then do I have the right to put epoxy in the crack where those cowardly trad climbers have been placing their cams? Just trying to figure out how what you mean here, I'll never be good enough to climb Dune under any circumstances so to me whether the bolts are there or not doesn't matter much.
"style" and "better style" are pretty well summed up by the article "Games Climbers Play" by Lito Tejada-Flores 50 years ago. Summarized as doing the climb with less gear/less heavyweight tactics as being "better". Obviously that was before sport climbing was established. But drilling a hole in the rock would be considered a pretty heavy weight tactic. The FA sets the minimum style bar.

But a bit conflicting with that is the popular belief that anybody should be able to climb something in any style they want as long as they are honest. With the caveat that your actions should not impact the options for others do try things in the style they want to. So your epoxy example won't pass muster there. Same as placing bolts - either action detracts from the trad experience.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Eric Engberg wrote:What I am now arguing is that because Dune has now been done in a better style that should remain in condition to support that.
Normally I'd agree with that, but in this case you'd have to buy the assertion that headpointing is "a better style". I personally don't.
Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

I think the pro- bolters should lead the route without the bolts and then get back to us as to whether they then want it bolted up.

Otherwise you are just dragging it down to your level.

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
Healyje wrote: Normally I'd agree with that, but in this case you'd have to buy the assertion that headpointing is "a better style". I personally don't.
Seems like headpointing is a subset of redpointing applicable to the trad context.

But you bring up the more general question - do rehearsed occurances of a purer style trump unrehearsed occurrences of a lessor style.
Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

Headpointing I think...depends. Take a trip to Great Britain and see for yourself how much fun and satisfaction those crazy Brits have wrung from boltless crags like Stanage and Froggatt. With very little rock to work with, they derive days, sometimes weeks of fun from one route.

Bolt that stuff and it's just another ho-hum day clipping bolts.

I'm guilty of doing a headpoint myself, un-intentionally. We had a popular, pumpy toprope that we all ran laps on back in the day. When I came back from Great Britain, I led the route ground-up, for fun and to see if it could be done.Now it's got five bolts and people complain they are too far apart...

Let's be honest here, the people that want to bolt Dune can toprope it, but find that unsatisfactory, mostly because they know somebody else sacked up and led it without additional gear, so to feel better about themselves they would happily destroy the evidence that someone else came along who was bolder than them.

If you climb at the level required, there is an endless selection of clip ups.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

If you want to put up a head test-piece than go find a line of your own instead of chopping somebody else's to lay claim to it. ..not implying that Zeb, or Tim chopped it. They probably weren't even alive when it was.

Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

I'm okay with that Mark, but wasn't Dune retro-bolted from the original aid route, so would your rule not apply there as well? If you want to climb a new free route, go find one yourself and don't wreck my aid climb?

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

I think we have already dealt with the free generally trumps aid thing, Tom. See above.

Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

Free trumps aid as long as you don't add bolts Mark, that's my understanding of it.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

There are many many examples of that not being the case. Only the exceptional aid climbs that wouldn't make good free climbs are usually reserved that way from what I see.

Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

And I would argue otherwise Mark. There are a great many routes on Cathedral and Whitehorse, and Cannon that went free without bolts being added. Those adventures were preserved by people with restraint and patience, who often went back many times before success, and sometimes just waited until someone better came along.

There are "many examples" of all kinds of daft shit.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

Sure, some people choose of their own volition to not add bolts, but it is not a universally accepted mandate by any means.

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
M Sprague wrote:If you want to put up a head test-piece than go find a line of your own instead of chopping somebody else's to lay claim to it. ..not implying that Zeb, or Tim chopped it. They probably weren't even alive when it was.
Zeb was too - he was ~3. Probably even potty trained.
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

Hmm, you didn't happen to give him a hammer for his birthday that year, did you?

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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