How do you set up your anchors?

Mark Paulson wrote: It always weirds me out too. But remember; most SS rings are 50kN+, which means your rope/belay carabiner/belay loop (none of which are redundant) and probably the anchor bolts themselves would break before that ring would.

Most companies (myself included) just rate rings at 50kN as it´s a real hassle to actually test them to breaking point, you physically can´t get two attatchment pins through that will take the force. my local certification lab can´t test them past 50kN either since that´s the strongest steel karabiner they can get. An 8mm stainless ring gets ca 58kN, a 10mm one is around the 80kN level and a 12mm one over 100kN.

Jim Titt wrote: you physically can´t get two attatchment pins through that will take the force.

It depends on how much you are willing to look around. You can get tool steel with a 60 hardness that has a strength of around 300,000 PSI. That would hold for sure. Likewise, on a more practical level, they manufacturer SAE "grade 9" bolts with a 180,000 PSI strength, and they are not expensive.

mcmaster.com/#standard-cap-…

If that does not work, it's certainly possible to find a very high strength alloy steel or tool steel option that would work, although it might have to be a custom job.

Intellectually, I know those rings are darn strong and failure is very unlikely, but as someone had posted, in general, I do not know who placed the anchors and installed the rings. I suppose it is a 'control issue' to an extent. But if I ever make it over to HI to climb, I will feel safer after this conversation.
As for rings being stronger than rope, belay loop, locking biner, etc, yes that is all true. But the rope, harness, belay equipment are all mine and I have control over how long I use them and when they get replaced. Though no longer common, failure of pre-placed anchor(s) still happen. Extreme example - there is a recent post about both SS bolts failing (due to corrosion) on a fixed anchor in Taiwan. Redundancy would not have prevented the climber from hitting the deck (he survived tho). And of course the push to use Ti gear instead at Tonsai, etc.

Is anyone making Ti glue ins yet?

Eric LaRoche wrote:Is anyone making Ti glue ins yet?

http://www.titanclimbing.com

Excellent. not much more expensive over SS glue ins.

M Sprague wrote: That is what I do, and wait for them to be on sale. I was getting the SS double ring on hanger set up for $7 or $7.50 each. SS quicklinks are usually insanely expensive...

How do people feel about using plated quicklinks and plated Fixe rap rings on stainless hangers (with a stainless bolt of course)?

I know this is the dreaded mixed-metals situation, but my understanding is that it wouldn't be a problem given that the contact between the two metals is out in the air where it dries quickly. This allows lower cost materials to be used on the parts that will be replaced more quickly. Obviously it would be great if everything were stainless, but the cost adds up quick. This seems like it could be a reasonable compromise in many climates (obviously wouldn't work everywhere).

There is only a $2 difference in price at full pop between the plated and SS rap rings, so that is $4 for a one pitch route. That is less then a pint of B&G ice cream, not nearly the difference as between quicklinks. I do use non stainless quicklinks often and have not noticed them affecting the bolts at all. I would prefer stainless, but 20 something dollars or more for a 5/16" SS maillon compared to a 1/2" non stainless one for $4 and I'll go for the much larger and stronger one that can take a bit of surface rust. (most of them actually hardly seem to rust here in NH beyond a light surface coating unless in a very wet spot, and they can be inspected and replaced easily) If I get a cash windfall I will go with all SS, but the one place I will go cheaper is on some of the quicklinks. I do use big ones though.

The Climb Tech stainless links are pretty well priced

$8.95 for 3/8" and $7.95 for 5/16"

climbtechgear.com/quicklink…

Or for $13.95 you get a hanger, 5/16" link and rap ring.

climbtechgear.com/stainless…

Not sure how much the shipping would end up being though, you'd have to check.

M Sprague wrote:.... 1/2" non stainless one for $4 and I'll go for the much larger and stronger one that can take a bit of surface rust. (most of them actually hardly seem to rust here in NH beyond a light surface coating unless in a very wet spot, and they can be inspected and replaced easily) If I get a cash windfall I will go with all SS, but the one place I will go cheaper is on some of the quicklinks. I do use big ones though.

Totally true for I have seen and used many a Sprague anchors. Thanks Mark! The qlinks are BIG and bomber and usually touching so they will not twist your rope too badly when you pull through.

Eric LaRoche wrote:Is anyone making Ti glue ins yet?

There is a Ti glue-in in my photo on the first post.... They have been production level for years now.

Greg Kuchyt wrote:The Climb Tech stainless links are pretty well priced $8.95 for 3/8" and $7.95 for 5/16" climbtechgear.com/quicklink… Or

And you can do even better on eBay. You can get 3/8" 316 quicklinks for about $6 each if you order in bulk.

Here is a 5/16" link for $5.47, and it's 316SS, not 304 like many.

ebay.com/itm/QUICK-LINK-316…

I am sure you can get an even better deal if you shop around or order in bulk.

Rich Farnham wrote: How do people feel about using plated quicklinks and plated Fixe rap rings on stainless hangers (with a stainless bolt of course)? I know this is the dreaded mixed-metals situation, but my understanding is that it wouldn't be a problem given that the contact between the two metals is out in the air where it dries quickly. This allows lower cost materials to be used on the parts that will be replaced more quickly. Obviously it would be great if everything were stainless, but the cost adds up quick. This seems like it could be a reasonable compromise in many climates (obviously wouldn't work everywhere).

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Rich,

From experience here in the Las Vegas, NV area I can tell you even in an arid climate electrolysis is working a lot more than you might think. I have re-climbed routes that were put up over 10 years ago and while the bolts look tight and good often the chains show considerable oxidation.

These are 5 part Rawl Plated bolts, Fixe plated hangers in limestone. And I know I got a lot of negative feedback from the more experienced developers here; so I am transitioning to stainless systems.

I have used quick links and chain segments to set up anchors on sport climbs and find the chains rusted after 2 seasons ( remember this is plated to plated).

Not rusted to where you wouldn't trust them but rusted nevertheless. Galvanized seems anecdotally to rust the most but because this chain is coming from China the alloy content varies. I hope someone more knowledgeable about metallurgy will chime in here.

Surprisingly the quick links don't see the same degree of oxidation but they are Chinese also. In the last 3 or 4 years I have been using some proof coil 3/8 plated chain I get from Lowes/Home Depot and that chain is not rusting. It forms a light coating of oxidation.

Going back, I occasionally run across a local placement where accidentally a stainless hanger was used with a plated bolt in limestone and it is shocking how much electrolysis has taken place in 10/12 years where the annual rainfall is about 9". I think, but don't know, that the plated is more reactive than stainless and that will be where you see the most and quickest oxidation. Maybe someone has knowledge about this also.

Speaking frankly as a developer, my goal is to install hardware which should be bomber for at least 20 years. There is so much potential in Nevada (I shouldn't be telling you this cause you'll all want to come here...:-)) I don't revisit some areas that often to do maintenance.

If I put myself on something with sketchy anchors (especially a multi-pitch) well that is one me, but I'd feel bad if I left something set up with poor anchor rigs for other climbers.

Incidentally, there is pretty extensive "under the radar" effort locally to replace bad and old placements in Red Rocks sandstone with the help of the local climbing coalition and the ASCA. Many of those retro-ed placements are becoming glue-ins

Recently I had a climber out here from Virgina, a strong lad, who could on-sight medium to hard 10 and dog his way up a lot of 11's...climbed at RRG and so forth. We visited the Hood and a couple other places. I invited him to try a flash on the first pitch of this ongoing project, but I forget the anchor set up was some faded/old 1" webbing tied and equalized with a single quick-link.

Well long story short Lukas understandably freaked out a little bit at the anchor and it took him a good long time to cobble together something he trusted to rap off from. I don't feel good about putting climber friends or really anybody in those kinds of situations.

Thomas Beck wrote: Rich, From experience here in the Las Vegas, NV area I can tell you even in an arid climate electrolysis is working a lot more than you might think...These are 5 part Rawl Plated bolts, Fixe plated hangers in limestone. ...Surprisingly the quick links don't see the same degree of oxidation but they are Chinese also.

Thomas - I'm not sure if you're agreeing with my suggestion or not. Again, I'm saying stainless bolts and hangers, with a plated quick link and a plated Fixe rap ring. The plated quicklinks I see around here seem to hold up pretty well. By the time they get rusty, it's probably time to swap out the ring anyway. But with a stainless bolt, that part would still be good to go. Any corrosion would be damaging the quicklink, not the hanger. And I think this corrosion would be pretty minor.

Gotta say, as someone who has climbed in SE Asia and lived in HI, the use of SS it's not a great idea there unless you're absolutely sure it's all going to be actively maintained in perpetuity.

Thomas Beck wrote: I hope someone more knowledgeable about metallurgy will chime in here.

That won't take long. One of these guys spanked me hard for talking about shit I didn't understand. Thats why I am following these hardware threads...to learn something.

Rich,

It is not black and white - cut and dried. I'd really like to go to an all stainless configuration for limestone. That is where about 80% of where my development is now.

Reality is I am having trouble affording it at the stainless hardware prices I'm seeing. I can afford the bolts and hangers, however tacking on another approx. $12 for stainless links, $20 or more for a 5 link stainless chain set is where the cost gets too high for me. I would be less expensive to go to a stainless rap ring set up. I find that set up twists ropes. And sometimes it is not good practice to set 2 anchor bolts close together in this limestone because of potential fracture lines, air pockets, calcite crossleys, tuffas, flow stone etc.

Around here (Southern Nevada) below 5000 ft snow seldom sits around more than a day. So I am OK with plated for a 20 year life cycle even though I get grief on these forums for doing so. I have pulled some 10 year and older 5-part plated Rawls and the bolts and sleeves are still OK. The sleeve is where the degradation occurs. I would not mix metals in these locations because so far the hardware is sound and adding in an electrolysis issue is not going to improve anything IMO.

Above 7000 ft. snow sits around for 2 to 4 months and the walls get melt-water on anything less than overhanging plus 3 months of freeze/thaw cycles. This terrain is where I would really like to use only stainless.

Mixing metals here, I don't know but I anticipate accelerated electrolysis. I know electrolysis rates are faster than oxidation rates. In this situation I believe the plated becomes the anode. However, rust slows the electrolysis rate, Perhaps a larger quick link would be the compromise between total stainless and a hybrid system.

I also consider how often the routes get climbed. Something around here at high altitude; 2 mile uphill approach, multi-pitch and not posted on the internet might see 10 ascents in a season. Yet single pitch sport route 30 minutes from parking over flat terrain has crowds every weekend from May till late September.

I feel that accessible sport route should be all stainless anchors for best practices.

But what about the more remote and committing line??? The old school climbers would be bringing some bail slings; but not everyone does....Bottom line; it is not such an easy decision for me. That's why I am on the thread trying to get more knowledge and source information.

Thomas Beck wrote:Does anyone have a lowest cost source for stainless links and chain? I am seeing around $25 per foot for 3/8 chain and $2.60 for 3/8 quick links. Plus shipping. thanks

Question for all..

I assume that just about everyone here would support the Access Fund, ASCA or some other national climbing organization setting up a one-stop shopping center for bolts, anchors, chains etc?

By pooling our needs we could get contract rates on gear, competition between suppliers, etc. and greatly lower our costs.

Thoughts?

Thomas Beck wrote: From experience here in the Las Vegas, NV area I can tell you even in an arid climate electrolysis is working a lot more than you might think. I have re-climbed routes that were put up over 10 years ago and while the bolts look tight and good often the chains show considerable oxidation. These are 5 part Rawl Plated bolts, Fixe plated hangers in limestone. And I know I got a lot of negative feedback from the more experienced developers here; so I am transitioning to stainless systems...... Incidentally, there is pretty extensive "under the radar" effort locally to replace bad and old placements in Red Rocks sandstone with the help of the local climbing coalition and the ASCA.

Thomas,

I'm surprised you are seeing so much corrosion in such a dry environment, and kudos for going to stainless. Here's some comments/questions.

It's tricky to identify what exactly is causing the corrosion you describe, but if it is actually galvanic (electrolysis) corrosion, I'd be surprised. Got photos? GC will have a (usually) white fuzzy crust (like wet table salt that's dried) where the metals touch (and only where they touch) and if you remove the crust, by brushing or washing, you'll see that the steels appear to be "eaten" away.

Galvanic corrosion requires two *dissimilar* metals to be in contact and immersed in an electrolyte. In most cases we're interested in, the electrolyte is just salty rain-runoff, a rather mild electrolyte, which is impotent when it dries so you don't see GC much in dry environments.

And in most cases, stainless, plated and galvanized steels are not dissimilar enough for GC to progress in a mild electrolyte. Aluminum hangers and steel bolts are the "classic" GC mix.

Of course, having said that, yesterday I saw what appeared to be galvanic corrosion between a bolt and cold-shut. Photo to be forthcoming.

Lowes and Home Depot gear is pretty much uncontrolled quality provided by the lowest bidder. China has a well-earned reputation for selling stuff that is not what they say it is. If it's rusting after 2 years, well, that's really bad.

And if the "galvanized" steel rusts fastest, then it's not really galvanized or there's some quite potent electrolyte out there! "Galvanized" means it's plated with Zinc (Zn). The Zn prevents the steel from rusting by sacrificing itself in place of the steel, and only when all the Zn has been consumed can the steel rust. A very thin (criminal) Zn coating might be to blame for what you're seeing.

BTW, the forthcoming UIAA guidelines will require a 50 year lifespan for fixed hardware.

John Byrnes wrote: Question for all.. I assume that just about everyone here would support the Access Fund, ASCA or some other national climbing organization setting up a one-stop shopping center for bolts, anchors, chains etc? By pooling our needs we could get contract rates on gear, competition between suppliers, etc. and greatly lower our costs. Thoughts?

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John,

I think this is an idea whose time has come. I think back to the original REI and MEC in Vancouver; start ups who had similar objectives.

People give me donations from time to time for hardware. ASCA has given me hardware for retro-bolting but their pockets are not without limits.

My thought is the donations might come more readily and more generously to a non-profit central distribution pool developers could all buy from at commercial rates.

Great idea!